Originally Posted By plpeters70 "and everyone else can just go straight to Hell...well, I have a hard time with that concept." Me too - I've always had a horrible time with the concept of Hell. I mean, when you really think about it, is there really anyone in all of history that deserves an ETERNITY of torture? We're not talking 50, 100 or even 1,000,000 years - we're talking FOREVER. It just doesn't make sense. Sure, people like Hitler probably deserve punishment - but ETERNAL punishment seems too much even for the likes of him. And if I, a mere human, can have that kind of compassion towards an evil person like that, shouldn't this God, who is "Love", have even more compassion?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Well, He didn't appear the the whole world and announce it, but that's generally what I believe He said to Joseph Smith in 1820. > Well, there's the trouble. If Joseph Smith says he was told the real deal in 1820... and John Doe says he was told the real deal in 1973... I have a hard time believing either. If everyone heard it simultaneously in all known languages... yeah, I'd go with that.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <"and everyone else can just go straight to Hell...well, I have a hard time with that concept."> I don't like that concept, either. I don't believe it.
Originally Posted By DAR <<Geeze. My dreams almost always involve finding myself back in high school on the day of a big test, in my underwear. Why can't I have more important dreams???>> Mine somehow involve me a tropical Island and swimsuit models.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "but that's generally what I believe He said to Joseph Smith in 1820" Why does God always seem to give this important information to just one person? Why not appear and announce it for the whole world to hear? But everytime, it's the same thing - whether it's Mohammed, Moses, Abraham or even Joseph Smith. It just seems like a strange way to run the Universe.
Originally Posted By mele <<is there really anyone in all of history that deserves an ETERNITY of torture? >> Yeah, I can think of a few...Hitler is the first one who comes to mind. I don't know...I don't believe in Satan as a separate entity but the things Hitler did would definitely qualify as pure evil. I am starting to believe good and evil as they live within humans are Heaven and Hell. I believe that they are spiritual forces that move within us and between us and others and they have real power but I guess the idea of the giant good God in the sky battling the horned Devil in the center of the Earth really silly. I think we battle those things in ourselves and in others, not something that exists outside of humans. If humans were gone from the planet, there would be no good or evil...just animal and plant life.
Originally Posted By pecos bill As far as changing my opinion? Sure, why not. Just give me some logical, rational, sound, kind, and loving interpretations that I can embrace and I am there! I have seen none of these things come together in any religion. I am in total agreement with religion based on region. If Josh's handle was JiddahJosh, it would be safe to assume he was a member of the Muslim faith. Post 19, well said!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Yeah, I can think of a few...Hitler is the first one who comes to mind." Well, I can understand that feeling, but I just don't think that even someone that purely evil deserves torture for eternity. I mean, we're talking pain forever and ever without any end -- ever. That's an absolutely frightening concept - and it goes beyond justice into the realms of sadism. I can understand how humans came up with the concept of hell, but when you really start to contemplate infinity, then it really starts to sound sick and twisted.
Originally Posted By pecos bill For an all loving God to even conceive of such an abomination would make that God the absolute definition of hypocrisy.
Originally Posted By mele But do religions really say that God is all-loving, tolerant God? I don't really think that they do...it seems that the most religions state that God loves you but still expects you to follow His rules or pay the price in the end. It seems like people who aren't really religious believe that God should be a tolerant, all-loving God.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "it seems that the most religions state that God loves you but still expects you to follow His rules or pay the price in the end" Very true - I'm just pointing out that "the price" is pretty sadistic, and not what I would equate with the concept of justice. It just all seems a little to Medieval for me.
Originally Posted By sherrytodd I suppose if God, Jesus, Buddha or Vishnu rang the doorbell one day and said "Here I am!" I would probably believe. Or I might just get in my car and drive straight to the nearest psych ward. I don't know if I would want to be the person that has to go tell everyone that God rang my doorbell the other day.
Originally Posted By mele I don't think the existance of God is anything we can truly know of but I try to keep an open mind. I've already changed my views of God in the past decade or so as I have learned and matured. I'm sure I'll have a different view of it all in another 10-20 years. I think the nice thing about admitting that I don't know is that all possibilities are open for me to ponder. I would have to experience a REAL miracle, something so amazing that there would be no doubt. But humans are amazing creatures...no telling what a person is capable of. Maybe once millions of people suddenly disappear in the Rapture, then I'll believe it's true.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***<What would be really interesting is if they ended up looking just like human beings. That would really make me think twice about the "created in God's image" thing.> That would support my believe in "created in God's image" thing. I believe God created the whole known universe..and I have no problem with other people on other planets, and I presume they look like us.*** Would you have a problem if they didn't? What about a race of intelligent, kind, spiritual beings that looked like snakes? Would you assume they were agents of Satan? (serious question, I am curious about this one) My whole take on "made in his image" is not that god has always looked like a bipedal homo sapien, but rather that he gave us a soul which is something only he had until humans evolved. I seriously doubt god the eternal and almighty looks like the descendant of a simian, as we do.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< 3) A prophecy, written explicitly in a religious text, indicating that a particular event will occur in the future...and the event occurs. This one is tricky, cause it has to be *real* and not Nostradamus style hypothetical stuff. In other words, if it was written in the bible that "On March the first, 2009, a great earthquake will occur and plunge Los Angeles into the sea", and it happens...I'm in. I'd repent, etc., and sign up to that religion. >>> That's a tough one, as it would mean that the one, true religion was none of the major ones we have today, as none of them have specific predictions of that sort in their religious texts.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< 4) A genuine miracle is performed, under scientific conditions where it is verified and repeated and signed off on by a large number of experts. If some guy can actually change water into wine (oil might be more useful these days lol), and prove it, I'm in. >>> You have a Catch-22 there. My understanding is that in order to be declared a Saint by the Catholic Church, there have to be at least two "verified" miracles attributed to the person. So, to faithful Catholics, this notion of proven miracles is already occurring. But I doubt that this is at all convincing of Catholicism being the one, true religion to anyone that's not already Catholic (and even then probably not even to a great many that are Catholic).
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Maybe once millions of people suddenly disappear in the Rapture, then I'll believe it's true. >>> Ah, but in order to witness this, you'd have to not be one of the ones taken away. By that time, it would already be too late, at least for you!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< So depending on which argument they're responding to, there's either tons of evidence for God, or the lack of evidence is the evidence. Either way, they win. >>> It's kind of like the argument that when anything good happens, it's direct evidence of God's work, and when anything bad happens, it's also God at work, and you just don't yet see the even better thing down the road that will make the bad worth it. So, any happening, whether good or bad, is seen as direct evidence of God actively at work in your life. If that's the metric to be used, it's not hard to believe, as it's fair to say that most people will have both good and bad things happen in their lives.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***My understanding is that in order to be declared a Saint by the Catholic Church, there have to be at least two "verified" miracles attributed to the person.*** Meh. Those are generally something like there was this dying person, and so and so prayed to Candidate Saint so and so, and the dying person got better. "verified" miracle. I want something a whole lot more than that. And I wouldn't want "verification" from a church that's for sure. Panel of experts, with a careful mix of cynics, that sort of thing.
Originally Posted By Elderp "Feeding a large group of people on small provisions, walking on water, raising the dead (and not just the mostly dead), etc. This is what I want to see, not the miracle of life or the wonders of nature." My answers to this are A) Salvation Army B) Go to the Red Sea C) Walk into any ER Bonus Answer: Walk into the Nursery of a hospital.
