Originally Posted By Elderp "Panel of experts, with a careful mix of cynics, that sort of thing." LOL, that's the funny thing God, you have to believe first to get the miracle.
Originally Posted By SuperDry To answer the original question, first of all we need to make clear that the term "non-believer" means very different things depending on whether we're talking about an agnostic or an atheist. To an agnostic, the thing that's not believed is that any particular religion has all of the details right or even a significant number of the details right, not that the general sense of God isn't believed in. For me, in order to believe that a particular version of a religious faith was the one, true version, it would have to be something that was consistent within itself, and consistent with the actual world around me. That is, I would want a 7-day-a-week religion, and not a 1-day-a-week one. If a particular religion really is the one, true manifestation of God, it should be equally usable in all aspects of life, and not just in church. If it was based on one of the existing religions that's been around a long time, it would have to explain why all the mistakes that have been made in the interpretation of that faith over time have occurred, yet now I'm supposed to believe that that's all been worked out and that the present interpretation is actually the one, true and correct one. If it was based on one of the religious texts with multiple, wildly diverse interpretations of the exact same set of written words (such as Christianity and the Bible), there would have to be an explanation as to why that particular interpretation is correct and all of the others incorrect (at least to the extent they disagree with the correct one). It would have to address in a consistent manner the issue of non-believers. For example, a religion that teaches that God is good and is a loving God, yet anyone that doesn't believe in a particular version of faith is going to Hell will have to overcome that the inevitable conclusion of that is that the vast majority of people are going to Hell, and is that any way for a good, loving God to set things up? And note that this is a problem with all of the major religions (not to mention the minor ones) as no particular religion is practiced by anywhere near a majority of people on Earth. It would have to be consistent with the natural sciences as they've developed over time. That's not to say that science is always correct, and especially not when it comes to moral issues (in so many ways, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should"), but you shouldn't have to ignore or discount recently-discovered facts about the real world just because they conflict with what some religious scholar said 200 years ago. After all, if God made the universe and all things in it, there's no reason that the sciences that study and measure such things should conflict with God's ultimate truth. More generally, the religion should stand up to scrutiny, analysis, and challenge, and actually be made stronger as it deals with these things, rather than act defensively and evasively.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< 4) A genuine miracle is performed, under scientific conditions where it is verified and repeated and signed off on by a large number of experts. If some guy can actually change water into wine (oil might be more useful these days lol), and prove it, I'm in. >>> I would have some concerns about that. First of all, you have the situation of someone simply knowing a lot more about something than the general public, or even the set of "experts" at the time. For example, don't you think that the ability to "make the sun go away and come back" as was attributed to those that could predict solar eclipses before they were generally known appeared as miracles or manifestations of ultimate power back then? Also, there would be the risk that some intelligent power from other than Earth was involved and had technology far superior to ours, and was from their point of view just performing a parlor trick. Or, in the realm of faith, perhaps it's just the Devil at work trying to trick us into following a false God. So, there are a great many difficulties in using "verified" miracles as a measure of the correctness of a particular faith.
Originally Posted By Mr X Post 42, excellent. I enjoyed reading it very much. As for post 43, very well said although once you get into the realm of intelligent powers from other than earth technologically far beyond us, or the work of the Devil, I'd say either of those things would be beyond what I know or understand at this time and thus would radically change my views in any case.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< once you get into the realm of intelligent powers from other than earth technologically far beyond us, or the work of the Devil, I'd say either of those things would be beyond what I know or understand at this time and thus would radically change my views in any case. >>> Ah, but what if one of those things was masquerading as God or God's work for some ulterior purpose? Would you be able to tell the difference? Perhaps not. That's why I think it would take more than just a "miracle" to convince me. I'd want my questions that I posted above to be answered as well.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Oh, another thing: there shouldn't be secrecy involved. If God has a particular faith that is universal and that He wants all people to practice, why would it be cloaked in secrecy? There shouldn't be parts of the faith that cannot be talked about in open company, whether due to embarrassment or religious edict.
Originally Posted By mele I think you get a second chance if you become a Christian after the Rapture. You might be slaughtered as a martyr but death isn't so scary if you know that there's a God and all of this stuff was true all along. I'm willing to risk it.
Originally Posted By mele Anybody remember the Rapture scene from the beginning of a "Six Feet Under" episode? You can find it on YouTube but I won't put up a link since it has salty language. ;-)
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Excellent Posts (specifically #42 and #46) SuperDry! That weeds out most (if not all) of the religions in the world. For me, I would need very little to believe in something - I would need something that actually made sense. Unfortunately, I haven't found anything that meets that criterion yet.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 SuperDry, #42 really does an excellent job of describing your position. Well done.
Originally Posted By Ursula <<<"Panel of experts, with a careful mix of cynics, that sort of thing." LOL, that's the funny thing God, you have to believe first to get the miracle.>>> AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! But what if, like me, God didn't give this "faith" to everyone? He just didn't. I don't have any.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf When I was a missionary I was supposed to share my faith with strangers. When I told my leader that I had none so how I could share it his answer was "we gain a testimony by sharing it." Translation: if you lie about something enough times you will believe it. I'm sure OJ actually has faith now that he didn't kill anybody.
Originally Posted By Elderp ^ If you had no testimony you shouldn't have been a missionary. Sharing a testimony when you have a weak one will help it grow, but zero times anything is still zero. "But what if, like me, God didn't give this "faith" to everyone? He just didn't. I don't have any." I find it hard to believe people don't have any faith. Weak faith maybe, but no faith is hard. If you had no faith you would wrap yourself in bubble wrap and never leave your house, and considering I have met you in person I know you don't. Every day we make decisions based on faith. I believe when I get in my car it will turn on. Why? I don't know much about cars, but I know when I turn the key it turns on. I believe that if I drive to work I will get there eventually. Some things I know, but most things have far too many permutations to calculate to absolute certainty. So what do you do, you go with what you got and the rest is faith. The key to real faith is recognizing it. It is possible but it takes lots of effort, most people don't care to bother. Perhaps another symptom of the information age, not quite sure.
Originally Posted By Mr X Elder, what you're talking about and religious faith are entirely different subjects. I mean, I have a reasonable amount of faith that my house won't collapse today, I assume it was well built and I know the earthquake codes are strong here. What does that have to do with believing in some god?
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<If you had no testimony you shouldn't have been a missionary.>> Agreed but I was told that my testimony would come to me in the MTC - obviously it didn't. <<Sharing a testimony when you have a weak one will help it grow, but zero times anything is still zero.>> Agreed. Zero truth times zeal is still zero.
Originally Posted By Ursula <<<I find it hard to believe people don't have any faith. Weak faith maybe, but no faith is hard. If you had no faith you would wrap yourself in bubble wrap and never leave your house, and considering I have met you in person I know you don't. Every day we make decisions based on faith. I believe when I get in my car it will turn on. Why? I don't know much about cars, but I know when I turn the key it turns on. I believe that if I drive to work I will get there eventually. Some things I know, but most things have far too many permutations to calculate to absolute certainty. So what do you do, you go with what you got and the rest is faith. The key to real faith is recognizing it. It is possible but it takes lots of effort, most people don't care to bother. Perhaps another symptom of the information age, not quite sure.>>> Thank you. No, I don't wrap myself in bubblewrap. Well, not often. I do understand cars and rollercoasters, so I ride both with more than faith! I think I've been bothering with it since we started discussion religion in a civilized manner lately on the LP. I don't feel faith. I admire those who can say without a doubt that they believe and it totally fascinates me. I want to know more. I want to know how some people can just say they "know" God and Jesus exists. I need proof, something to hang my hat on, so to speak. Because of this, and my on-going personal inability to find it, that I just don't have any. And to recount, I am currently agnostic, not an atheist. I don't NOT believe, but I neither do believe. Thank you all for letting me pick your brains, too! I love the discussion.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I want to know how some people can just say they "know" God and Jesus exists.*** They don't. It's really that simple. They can believe it strongly, that's fine. I believed strongly in Santa Claus at one point in my life, however it turned out I was wrong (or, rather, I was lied to...what a weird custom that is!). To actually "know" someone, you have to actually meet them (or, in the case of message boards, correspond would be a better terminology). And if anyone here claims they have actually met or spoken to god, I'd really like to know what questions you asked and what the answers were. That'd be a fun conversation.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<MTC?>> Sorry, Mormon-speak. It means Missionary Training Center. It's a training facility in Provo Utah where Mormon missionaries start their missions. It's where you learn the proseletyzing techniques as well as a foreign language (if necessary). It's quite an intense place.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo For me, I think seeing an interactive spirit, one that clearly is sentient, would redeem my faith in religion. So much of religion hinges on an afterlife, so if there is proof, any scientific proof (or very strong evidence) of life after death, would lead to believe that there is more meaning to life than biocehmistry.
