Originally Posted By BrnardM << You could take the Hyperion, build a true lobby with bathrooms and concessions, and then offer full length shows, some movie premieres, and rent out the facility to folks who want to host things like concerts, awards ceremonies, dance and cheer competitions, etc.>> I've been wondering why they haven't done something like this since 2001. It seems like such outreach would be source of fantastic publicity for the park and add to it some of the credulity that it needs.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Some not so random thoughts on Al's column and the issues raised. First it's not gonna happen. Take it to the bank. Do you realize what kind of message it sends? It says 'yep, the geeks were right ... this park is a total waste ... we built it on the cheap and lack the creative ability and the financial desire to fix what's wrong and make a decent park a great one, so we're just gonna make a mall out of it like Al Lutz God always said it was anyway.' I'm also surprised that Tony is supposedly behind this ... especially with John Lasseter on board and focused on making DL and DCA better. How does this possibly do this. This park is 'a problem' ... nice that five years later they can freely admit that. But so isn't Disney-MGM Studios. They built a cheap third gate in Anaheim when they needed to build an expensive second gate. They got away with that in Orlando because there were already two full quality, full day(s) Disney parks. Not to mention all the resort offerings. That's not the case in Anaheim. The management at TDA was so godawful in the 1995-2003 period that every move was a knee-jerk 'please save my exec behind' decision. They ripped out a great parade, when it should have stayed. They ripped out a restuarant that cost millions for a kiddie show that could have gone in a temporary soundstage ala Millionaire. They added a kiddie area that, while nice, offers nothing for older kids and adults. They brought back a relic of a parade etc ... I have no idea how many one-day tickets to DCA are sold. But I do know it isn't in the same stratosphere as Epcot and TDS ... and, from what I've been told, even the pathetic excuse for a park that is DSP sells far more one day tix. The only way you change that is by changing perceptions and you do that by giving compelling reasons to visit. ToT and Monsters may be quality attractions, but they aren't nearly enough. You don't say a park that still attracts a top 10 ranking in the USA is an abject failure. What's worse with DCA, is unlike at opening, the park has absolutely no focus any more. (not that the MK or Epcot or Disney-MGM Studios do!) Nope. It's just throw things into the park and see what sticks. The shopping, dining and pay as you go attraction idea isn't new at all. It can be traced back over two decades to Michael Eisner's first attempted park development in Burbank. It may have worked for that type of mixed use development. ... Taking the turnstyles away from a park is an entirely different animal. But there just isn't any vision. And that is lacking beyond TDA and into the valley ... in the offices on Flower ... and in Burbank. No one seems to know what DCA should be least of all people like Rasulo, Goodman, Baxter, Fitzgerald etc ... people whose jobs are supposed to determine the direction of parks. As to agendas, let's just say that anyone that has a real part of the Disney Internet has them ... unless they're just one of those 'Dole Whips is TastY!' fanboys/girls. I admit I have no idea whose agenda Al is pushing ... just like I have no idea whose agenda Jim Hill or anyone here are pushing. BTW, I guess I must have missed the thread on Hill's Monday column about Disney plants on websites such as this, which of course is pure fantasy ... right Burbank? ;-)
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "The number I have heard is over 60% of the attendance is locals." If that's true then a whopping 40% are not. That's a pretty big percentage. If DL Park gets 12 million guests annually, then about 4.8 million of them are out of towners. "Why doesn't Disneyland Paris declare bankruptcy, restructure and reopen?" Euro Disney, the company that operates DLP, has been restructured and bailed out numerous times by several investors including the Walt Disney Company.
Originally Posted By jonvn Tony needs to go. All people playing politics at WDI need to go. Anyone leaking any information to Al Lutz should be summarily fired.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< "Why doesn't Disneyland Paris declare bankruptcy, restructure and reopen?" Euro Disney, the company that operates DLP, has been restructured and bailed out numerous times by several investors including the Walt Disney Company. >>> Yes, we're all aware of that. You answered the "what," not the "why." <<< Do you realize what kind of message it sends? It says 'yep, the geeks were right ... this park is a total waste ... we built it on the cheap and lack the creative ability and the financial desire to fix what's wrong and make a decent park a great one >>> Sounds like the plotline for An Inconvenient Truth 2. <<< You don't say a park that still attracts a top 10 ranking in the USA is an abject failure. >>> Except that the ranking on the Top 10 Theme Parks list doesn't directly contribute to the bottom line, especially if the gate revenue and guest spend are dramatically less than the other Disney parks on the list (when it's almost certain that they were budgeted to be in line with them proportionally). <<< When I went to Tokyo Disney Resort I bought a 3 Day Ticket from the main ticket booth. The first day I could go to Disneyland, but not to DisneySea. The second day I could go to DisneySea, but not to Disneyland. And only on the third day was I allowed admission to either park of my choosing. They force you into a day at each park with any multi-day ticket in Tokyo. >>> Not true. On multi-day tickets, you choose which one park you want to visit on each of the first two days. You are free to choose both days at TDL or both days at TDS if you want (unless one of the parks is already sold out in advance for that day). Someone reading what you wrote might think that TDR guests on multi-day passports are forced to spend at least one day at TDS, artificially boosting attendance above the natural demand, but this is not the case. <<< it takes a 10 minute monorail ride with two stops to get to the DisneySea entrance from the Disneyland entrance. ... they don't make it easy to hop back and forth. ... plan an afternoon around the process of moving from Disneyland to DisneySea. >>> You have to plan an afternoon around a 10-minute monorail ride? <<< Lasseter had supported spending 700 Million and five years to add a short roster of classically styled E-Tickets and plus up existing areas with sweeping changes to architecture and amenities in a program regular readers know as "Placemaking." Tony Baxter, on the other hand, has reportedly supported a group of Imagineers that feel DCA is so inherently flawed that Burbank will never be able to muster the long-term capital needed to make it a suitable companion park to Disneyland. >>> There are a couple of ways to interpret the above. One way is that Tony thinks that the $700 million won't actually materialize over the five-year period and they might as well be realistic about it up front. The other is even more interesting: that $700 million would not be enough to fix The DCA Problem. Considering that that's more than the entire park cost to construct at opening, that really would be a stunning conclusion. And I'm not so sure it's totally off base. Unlike HKDL, DCA's problems go far beyond just adding a few attractions.
Originally Posted By spacejockey I seriously doubt this would ever happen. However, if DCA did become DTD, I wonder how Disney would deal with the whole "security issue". Wouldn't all the attractions be exposed to all public access? Seems like too much of a liability to me. Sorry, but the neighborhood around Disneyland is “a little sketchy†to put it mildly. At least now, I feel safe inside the parks. I’ve already witnessed more than one conflict in the current DTD.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I do take issue with the fact that all of these major WDI leaks seem to either come from Tony's inner circle or involve his name. >>> I can imagine that there are quite a few people within TWDC that are upset with the leaks, whether it be for the relatively minor TSI issue or something as big as the quoted article above. I have to say that it made me a bit uncomfortable reading the article - it was as if I had broken into someone's house and was going through their stuff. I don't think WDI or anyone else needs to have their confidential plans aired in public like this, especially when they are still in the early stages. If there is recurring source for these leaks, I hope they find it and get it plugged one way or the other. But as leemac pointed out, with organizations as big as WDI and TWDC are, it's very much true that "loose lips sink ships" and that offhand comments or perhaps entire overheard conversations can reveal quite a lot, and you never know who is listening. The walls very much have ears. <<< The Creative group at WDI is significantly bigger than just Tony and in fact there are numerous show producers more productive and profilic than him that never get a mention. Why? Becuase their suff doesn't get leaked. >>> More prolific at creating Anaheim's Pooh? A giant hubcap? Paradise Pier? You may personally enjoy some or all of these from an artistic, guest, and/or financial point of view, but I'm sure you realize that your opinion is in the minority. And please realize I'm not making any right or wrong judgement here.
Originally Posted By nemopoppins And now for something completely different... I REALLY like the idea of un-parking DCA. It seemed to me that DCA was mostly restaurants with outside commercial interests when it opened anyway. And I love DTD. It has atmosphere that DCA doesn't have. A DTD with attractions could be the thing to make Disneyland Resort complete. I'd like something really new and different. And it could be the beginning of a revolutionary new entertainment form.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Tony needs to go.>> Likely. <<All people playing politics at WDI need to go.>> True, but then who would you have left? The janitors? <<Anyone leaking any information to Al Lutz should be summarily fired.>> Perhaps, but what about the Disney plants on fan sites? People who are paid, one way or another, to push the company's agenda/line ... to avoid any bad PR and/or disuade the mainstream reporters who lurk here from writing about potentially embarassing situations? What about them?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<< Lasseter had supported spending 700 Million and five years to add a short roster of classically styled E-Tickets and plus up existing areas with sweeping changes to architecture and amenities in a program regular readers know as "Placemaking." Tony Baxter, on the other hand, has reportedly supported a group of Imagineers that feel DCA is so inherently flawed that Burbank will never be able to muster the long-term capital needed to make it a suitable companion park to Disneyland. >>> <<There are a couple of ways to interpret the above. One way is that Tony thinks that the $700 million won't actually materialize over the five-year period and they might as well be realistic about it up front. The other is even more interesting: that $700 million would not be enough to fix The DCA Problem. Considering that that's more than the entire park cost to construct at opening, that really would be a stunning conclusion. And I'm not so sure it's totally off base. Unlike HKDL, DCA's problems go far beyond just adding a few attractions.>> I'm not sure $700 million would be enough ... but I am sure, if allocated correctly, would go a long way toward fixing the park. The park has a lot of quality attractions, much more IMHO than Disney-MGM Studios, DSP or even the beautiful looking HKDL Lite. Without wanting to sound like Barry Braverman, because there are REAL, SERIOUS DEFECTS, but there's a large gap between perception and reality. I think the perception amongst non-Disney Internet fans is that the park while not DL is still a fun, quality place. While the feelings amongst a great majority of the fanboys is that the parking lot was superior. And that's the PR nightmare that the Mouse has ... and it's one of their own making.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<If there is recurring source for these leaks, I hope they find it and get it plugged one way or the other. But as leemac pointed out, with organizations as big as WDI and TWDC are, it's very much true that "loose lips sink ships" and that offhand comments or perhaps entire overheard conversations can reveal quite a lot, and you never know who is listening. The walls very much have ears.>> The leaks are part and parcel of the way the political structure is in TWDC, especially in Burbank and Glendale. It isn't one side or one group doing the leaking. It's a giant urinating contest between various factions/teams who are fighting for jobs/projects/relevance. There are very few folks at WDI who take the high road and try and keep things in house. Joe Rohde is one, but he's an exception. The rule is use the Internet and the fans anyway you can to get your agenda pushed through. To just say it's only Queen Tony isn't fair or accurate.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Perhaps, but what about the Disney plants on fan sites? People who are paid, one way or another, to push the company's agenda/line ... to avoid any bad PR and/or disuade the mainstream reporters who lurk here from writing about potentially embarassing situations? >>> Well, I never thought about it quite like that before. You have an interesting perspective.
Originally Posted By Mr X <<< Perhaps, but what about the Disney plants on fan sites? People who are paid, one way or another, to push the company's agenda/line ... to avoid any bad PR and/or disuade the mainstream reporters who lurk here from writing about potentially embarassing situations? >>> You mean Lee? Come on, he's no plant! It's just that he doesn't like people revealing company secrets (like he just did a few posts ago), but rather prefers to engage in his favorite passtime of self important name-dropping and making certain that we know he frequents "1401 Flower". Thinking it was some sort of a drag bar, I had to look it up to be sure, but that's actually DISNEY HEADQUARTERS!! How cool is THAT!? j/k Lee...nuthin but love for ya bro.
Originally Posted By oc_dean I know this topic is brand new .. but there's a little something no one has mentioned yet, which I'm surprised: What Tony Baxter proposes, is the exact same format that existed for Knott's Berry Farm from the 1940s .. right on up to the "Roaring 20s" addition, which at the point (1976), made the entire park one "gated" admission. As I grew up only 2 miles from Knott's throughout the 1960s and 70s I'm all too familiar with it's history. (Just like this proposal for DCA) ... People could roam the entire Ghost Town section .. which was pretty big then. There was the section of Mrs. Knott's Chicken Dinner restaurant .. and an entire FULL area that extended all the way back to a steak house, candy store, and bakery. Anyone remember that? People could wonder into Gypsy Camp. A lightly themed area with shops and eating places. No worry for admission to all these walking areas with shops and restaurants. And of course ... If you wanted to go on the Calico Mine Train, Timber Mtn. Log Ride, Stage Coach, etc ... You could buy seperate tickets. So Knott's carried this format for decades. But then the coming of the Roaring 20s section in 1976 changed everything. If DCA goes down this route as Knott's did ... would we find it reversing into the state of a fully contained "Gated" theme park again, as Knott's currently is?
Originally Posted By oc_dean I think both competing proposals are not good enough. The first idea, by Lassetter, speaks of a few grand E Tickets and _some_ "placemaking". Doesn't sound ambitious enough - Enough to cover every single area that is lacking. Tony's idea says that DLR will never be a "WDW", in that .. even while WDW can have 4 gated theme parks which are successful .. DL in Anaheim can't as much as support 2 - Ever! Why is it so hard to think of one grand idea that transforms the entire park .. and then accomplish it all in PIECE MEAL. That's what they were going to do with Tomorrowland:2055. The original slated timetable would have commenced Jan 1992 with a completion in July 1995. So why can't they take on whole/entire sections of DCA .... one at a time, leaving others running .. until it's all done? Too much beaurocracy in Disney!
Originally Posted By leemac <<Why doesn't Disneyland Paris declare bankruptcy, restructure and reopen? If they did they would become profitable instantly. The answer: because Disney doesn’t want the publicity that comes with it. It would look like they failed. That is the same reason why they will never turn DCA into a shopping center/hotel complex with rides.>> Park Hopper that isn't strictly the truth. Bankruptcy protection (a la Chapter 11 equivalent) is much tougher in Europe and is never viewed as anything but a last resort. EuroDisney SCA have restructured their debt on numerous occasions. To stress what I have said numerous times the resort IS profitable and cash-flow positive it is just the debt repayment burden that drags them down. Eisner said on numerous occasions that he was prepared to walk away from Paris if they didn't get the right concessions. I don't think the value of any perceived negative publicity (or potential knock-on effect to the other parks) would have outweighed the fiscal problems the park would have had without the restructuring.
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<Anyone leaking any information to Al Lutz should be summarily fired.>> Perhaps, but what about the Disney plants on fan sites? People who are paid, one way or another, to push the company's agenda/line ... to avoid any bad PR and/or disuade the mainstream reporters who lurk here from writing about potentially embarassing situations?>> Spirit do you really truly believe that they exist? I honestly can't imagine why the Company would waste resources on something as trival as that. One plant isn't going to be able to sway public opinion. It is also in polar opposite to the general PR policy at the Company to not deal with fansites.
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<< The Creative group at WDI is significantly bigger than just Tony and in fact there are numerous show producers more productive and profilic than him that never get a mention. Why? Becuase their suff doesn't get leaked. >>> More prolific at creating Anaheim's Pooh? A giant hubcap? Paradise Pier? You may personally enjoy some or all of these from an artistic, guest, and/or financial point of view, but I'm sure you realize that your opinion is in the minority. And please realize I'm not making any right or wrong judgement here.>> SuperDry there have been numerous other projects recently that don't have Tony's true fingerprints on them like Everest and TDS's ToT.
Originally Posted By leemac <<The leaks are part and parcel of the way the political structure is in TWDC, especially in Burbank and Glendale. It isn't one side or one group doing the leaking. It's a giant urinating contest between various factions/teams who are fighting for jobs/projects/relevance. There are very few folks at WDI who take the high road and try and keep things in house. Joe Rohde is one, but he's an exception.>> You know I vehemently disagree with that statement. I'm sorry Spirit but that argument just doesn't stick with me. There are literally dozens of projects and new parks being worked on by WDI and as far as I know very little of it has reached the public domain "by leaks". However it always seems to revolve around a particular individual. It may be that he surrounded himself with people that can't keep secrets. I don't know. Anyone in the corporate world would shudder at the level of insider knowledge that filters out from TDA/WDI. I know I sure would. Is it unique to Disney? Again no idea. You would have to be very foolish to believe that you can wage internal battles in the public domain. Managers don't take too kindly to that.
