Originally Posted By Jim in Pasadena CA that would be 'spear' -- you know, pick up a spear and fight his brother. Or why didn't the old shaman woman tell the brother that Kanai had been transformed into a bear? How much time passed from the time Kenai turned into a bear until the end of the movie? two days? two weeks? Why would mammoths carry mooses on their backs? Or bears? Why, if the film is set in prehistoric times, is there a 'surfer dude' bear in that one scene? Or the 'Russian' bear who speaks in jibberish. These are just a few of my questions pertainly to 'Brother Bear' I wonder if the answer will be 'You're thinking about it too much'? I like that answer.
Originally Posted By Jim Kenai is on the verge of being killed with his brother . . . I don't think taking time to convince his brother that he's a human in a bear body. Plus, he now has Bear hands . . . not having thumbs makes holding a spear a bit difficult (particularly when you are being chased by your brother). Spelling in the sand . . . this is pre-historic Inuit people. They drew pictures and had a rich oral history. Tanana (the shaman woman) didn't get to Denahi . . . remember, he went straight from seeing Kenai's "remains" to hunting him. Time elapse . . . I'm not sure. There is a change of seasons (or at least a snowfall), but I don't think this matters. The point of the mammoths was that Kenai managed to get on one as a human, then was able to do it again as a bear. Furthermore, all the mammoths I've known have been very friendly types, so it didn't surprise me. Surfer Bear and Russian/Croatian Bear . . . Why not? The Russian/Croatian Bear could have come over on the landbridge (same as the Native Americans). As for the Surfer Bear . . . Look at the hair. Any other questions? Jim Miles (who loves BROTHER BEAR and has now seen it three times)
Originally Posted By Buttons Mom I just saw it on Sunday, and I got to say, the whole movie was wonderful. I would give it a A-/B+. I am very impressed, including knowing that my fiance like it too (and he is DEFINITELY not a major Disney fan). He enjoyed it too and was glad that he got to see it. We are going to see it again, and bring my mom to it. This goes up with my top 5 faves of all time.
Originally Posted By narkspud >>Or better yet, scrawl a note in the dirt... "Denahi, it's me Kenai..."<< Bears are sneaky. Denahi never would've bought it. >> I can't think of another Disney animated feature to use such a blatant deus ex machina to pull off the ending.<< Like Ursula getting stabbed by that pointy ship?
Originally Posted By Jim The endind satisfied me completely. I think it works perfectly because it's set up so well. Kenai's totem is love . . . He had learned what that meant and responded, not out of his own wishes, but out of love.
Originally Posted By Jim in Pasadena CA And then Koda still hangs with Kenai, even after he finds out that Kenai has killed his MOTHER??? Even my 9-year old had an issue with that. Come on!!
Originally Posted By jdub With a carefully supervised combination of quality counseling and psychotropic drugs, Kenai was completely reformed.
Originally Posted By Jim "I love dew." From the moose brothers, Koda learned the real meaning of brotherhood, love and forgiveness. It would be a jarring thing, to know one person then learn another things about him (and remember that Koda got to see his mother again). And then there was the therapy and psychotropic drugs.
Originally Posted By basil fan Ursula getting stabbed wasn't a deus ex machina. Eric did it to her on purpose. I'm talking about some third party coming in out of the blue & creating a happy ending by pulling a rabbit out of a hat, figuratively speaking. The closest thing I can think of in another animated feature is the Sultan changing the law about Jasmine's marriage. Close, but not really the same thing, since he is right there with the other characters all through the film, & he didn't step in to solve the climactic problem, namely, Al's battle with Jafar. Why didn't Kenai write a message in the dirt? The same reason Ariel didn't write a note to Eric telling who she really was. (Actually, he couldn't use his paws very well in several scenes. I doubt he could do anything as dextrous as writing.) I totally agree about the various bears' accents: why not? The voices/accents are just for fun. As long as they don't mention surfing, why not have a surfer accent? Or is Disney going to take a page from Mel Gibson & only do movies in the actual language the characters would speak, instead of translating for the audience? I'm glad Koda forgave Kenai. That's why he's a good guy, not a bad guy. Scooby-Doo Glitches <a href="http://www15.brinkster.com/wtstsgalor/etc/scooby.html" target="_blank">http://www15.brinkster.com/wts tsgalor/etc/scooby.html</a>
Originally Posted By actingforanimators >>I'm talking about some third party coming in out of the blue & creating a happy ending by pulling a rabbit out of a hat, figuratively speaking.<< BROTHER BEAR is not in fact a true use of this device, either. For those of us who have forgotten, or who even not yet encountered this term, Deus ex Machina literally means the God from the Machine, and refers specifically to how in Greek theatre (mostly in the comedies, though in select tragic plays as well) at the 11th hour when things look darkest for the hero a God descends from on high and saves the day. This character arrived in an elaborate contraption - sometimes by wires from above, sometimes rolled onto the stage, stepping out of or appearing within this 'machine' to make a pronouncement that turned the tide in favor of the protagonist. This term has since come to mean a figurative literary device that writers use in much the same way. E.g. the sudden appearance of a mystery witness to the real murder at the 11th hour of a trial, or the sudden discovery - as if out of nowhere - of the previously unknown last will and testament that saves the farm! In BROTHER BEAR we KNOW that he was turned into a Bear by his Brother's spirit, and that Tenana can perform magic as well...so neither of these qualifies as "coming out of nowhere" and the power they have is not sudden or unknown to us, so I don't see that as being Deus ex Machina. Deus ex Machina would apply only to the entrance of some character who has the power to do things and change things that NO other character we've seen, met or heard about has at their disposal; a power greater than that of any other characters including the protagonist and the antagonist. The closest device is the little village girl in THE JUNGLE BOOK. Even here, she is a force of nature - natural attraction for the human Mowgli – and not particularly more powerful than the other characters (for example, she couldn’t stop Shere Khan in his tracks with a wiggle of that nose and batting of those eyes) So I think very device, change, magic spell, rescue, duel, kiss, etc. in all Disney animated films is built into the story and/or the character's nature from the outset of the film. A sudden change of heart does not qualify as Deus ex Machina. Neither do a kiss from a Prince we've already met or the disappearing/reappearing ink on Will we knew was there from the start. Deus ex Machina is without logic - even outside the specific logic unique to the universe/world in which the film takes place. Some Disney endings may be awfully convenient, but they all stem from a set of established rules within the specific universe of each film.
Originally Posted By actingforanimators By the way, I'm wholeheartedly in agreement with BASIL FAN's statement >>I'm glad Koda forgave Kenai. That's why he's a good guy, not a bad guy.<< Kenai MUST have Koda's forgiveness for his transformation to be complete. It's not enough for a character to realize it for themselves. They also must have that given or "gifted" to them by another character in order to complete the change. And I for one think that a message of forgiveness alongside a message of acceptance and understanding is an outstanding thing for a children's film. The lack of cynicism is comforting, and in an age of revenge and "them vs us" I find this a refreshing and wonderful thing to teach a child at any age. Even if the world tests this belief over and over and over again as we mature, if the underlying principal of trying to see from within another's soul, in their world, as they believe and live and think, AND to try to forgive even the most unforgivable act in someone who realizes and admits to their mistakes -- well, for my money that's the kind of adult I want sitting on the Court, or voting on laws, or governing the Democracy. It may be tested, but when it's a fundamental part of a person's character right down there in the foundation of who they are and what they believe, then when push comes to shove the soul or the spirit or even the most logical mind - if you will - comes at last to this fundamental idea. That’s a value and an ethical fundamental that I can support 100% I like the concept a world that could look like that, and I don’t think teaching it is a bad thing at all. Do you? “Forgiveness is where love and understanding meet.†--- Tony Kushner – ANGELS IN AMERICA
Originally Posted By basil fan The spirits who transformed Kenai were known to the audience already. Point taken. but I found it too, well, too none-of-the-characters-can-rescue-themselves-so-find-somebody-who-can-help-them-please-and-give-this-story-an-ending. If Kenai had managed to get Denahi's weapon away, thus saving himself, & *then* he was transformed back, I think it would be better storytelling, IMHO. Disney Trivia Quiz <a href="http://www15.brionkster.com/wtstsgalor/dquiz.html" target="_blank">http://www15.brionkster.com/wt stsgalor/dquiz.html</a>
Originally Posted By Jim But I think it was appropraite because the whole situation was guided by Sitka. He was the one who lead Denahi to the final attack, so it seems natural to me that he would stop it in time.
Originally Posted By basil fan Then I hope we can agree to disagree. I still need to view BB the 2nd time. I'll see how it strikes me then.
Originally Posted By brotherbearkoda hi, i just signed up and i read some of your messages and i totally agree with toonkirby about rutt and tuk. and i thought brother bear was a beautifully done movie, unlike somr of the other recent movies of their's(mostly sequals ie: hond2, and 101 dalmations2). when it came to sequals disney really got sloppy with their work, and making sequals was agenst walt's wishes anyway, they just basically wanted to slap together these sequals for the money, while walt on the other hand just didnt care jack sqaut about money he just wanted to entertian people. its funny though cause when it came to new movies like treasure planet, and brother bear they did a beautiful job on them. anyway i thought brother bear was a great movie with cute charactors and a great storyline.
Originally Posted By basil fan Finally, after much tribulation, I was able to see Brother Bear again. And I'm man enough to say that I was wrong about the climax. The point that utterly escaped me was the way it mirrored the death of Koda's mother to the point where it looked like Denahi actually killed his brother. How, you may ask, did I miss an important point like that? Simply that my neice asked me for something & I turned my head just as Mom bought it. I instantly (mentally) kicked myself, but, alas, too late. So, I stand corrected & am happy to say that I've at last seen this film in its entirety. P.S. the 2nd viewing is ALWAYS the best, IMO. Donald Duck's Family Tree <a href="http://www15.brinkster.com/wtstsgalor/donald.html" target="_blank">http://www15.brinkster.com/wts tsgalor/donald.html</a>
Originally Posted By BrnardM Well it took me long enough but I finally got around to seeing Brother Bear. Well worth the wait too. Though not without flaws, I really found myself enjoying this one and I felt that it held well to the theme. I agree that the climax was a tad bit choppy and though the outcome was necessary it might have been handled better. Still, I though it was great movie and it was nice to hear some songs along the way.
