Originally Posted By Ifzorro68 I agree that something like the Confederate flag should not be displayed out in the open especially since the flag really has no purpose anymore but in the context of history there should be no reason to remove . I understand how certain things upset different people but it might believe we should not start removing, destroying, or hiding anything that has to do with our history . There is a reason why we have museums for the Holocaust Museum of that show the injustice done to the American Indians museums that remind us of different wars. memorials to remind us of things that we have done in the past that we might not be proud of. If we start doing that to be politically correct then at what point does it stop. to be politically correct then at what point does it stop should we maybe start burning books that are offensive destroying work of art that offend others and maybe destroy them pave over old architecture that to some might be offensive even though they are part of her history.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Should there be a Holocaust ride in the German Showcase at EPCOT? Should there be a representation of Stonewall in the NY section of DHS? How about a replica of Castro Street in DCA? Face it, there are places where some of these subjects, no matter how their historical significance, are just inappropriate for a Disney theme park.
Originally Posted By Ifzorro68 I wasn't suggesting that these events be made into entertainment. But if the flag in this case is being displayed with other historical events of a certain era then I see no problem with it being in a Disney theme park. Disney America was going to be a theme park and if you see the plans it had lands that showed historical signicance including recreations of war which is. To uncommon in several cities. Does that mean that we are paying. Disrespect to those that died? Of course not. Obviously those ridiculous suggestions that you suggested would never fall in to an appropriate historical relevance and be appropriate and is big difference between displaying something that for teaching purpose and or entertainment.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I have mixed feeling on all this. At times I think America needs to be presented with the past and acknowledge the mistakes that were made in the past. But as someone living in the (kind of) south now, I can guarantee you that you will NEVER change the "hearts and minds" of current white southerners. You might as well get rid of a symbol that many find offensive and hope that future generations of southerners eventually evolve.
Originally Posted By OswaldDonaldRoger It was removed because it is a symbol of bigotry and hatred. Disney does want to support this idea. If even one guest was made to feel uncomfortable it trumps 100 guests that look upon such a symbol with pride or reverence for history. Disney is for everybody, and a good time family fun theme park, not a museum or a school where things can be learned in context.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Disney America was going to be a theme park and if you see the plans it had lands that showed historical signicance including recreations of war which is." That project never saw the light of day in part because people were very concerned about how Disney would tell the story through "magic" and "dreams". I always commend Disney when it is ambitious and attempts to do the unexpected, however this is a sensitive and serious topic that is best left to historians not a corporation in the entertainment business. "Disney is for everybody, and a good time family fun theme park, not a museum or a school where things can be learned in context." This.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>Should there be a Holocaust ride in the German Showcase at EPCOT?<< If there was a ride in the Germany pavilion that was all about the country's history, I would expect them to include it. I would not, however, expect a ride based solely on the Holocaust as the pavilion's sole attraction. Similarly, the American Adventure is all about American history and includes parts about slavery and the Civil War. >>Should there be a representation of Stonewall in the NY section of DHS?<< Why would there be? That section is themed to look like a movie studio backlot, not a real city. Everything in it reflects that idea; only MuppetVision has any pretense of being "real", and even that is very cheeky And as an aside, although they've gotten a lot more publicity in recent years, I really don't think the Stonewall riots were as big of a turning point as people try to make them out to be. Sure, it was a step in the right direction and more of a single 'moment' than many other things in the gay rights movement, but it doesn't seem like the real progress was made until a decade or two later. When I think of "Stonewall" my mind immediately goes to "Jackson", not "riots" >>How about a replica of Castro Street in DCA?<< Perhaps this would fit. Although DCA really seems to have abandoned any conceit of being about California, it still has some good elements in it. It's gone now, but Golden Dreams included some rather unsavory scenes (including a Chinese railroad worker getting blown up), so I think that park has the potential to have some learning moments. >>Face it, there are places where some of these subjects, no matter how their historical significance, are just inappropriate for a Disney theme park.<< I disagree. Maybe I have a different concept of what a Disney theme park can or should be, but I see nothing wrong with having elements in them that have teachable moments that are a little uncomfortable. Great Moments with Mr Lincoln at DL has always addressed slavery and the Civil War, and the struggle for equal rights is the focus of the current iteration of the Hall of Presidents. For many people, Disney's theme parks are just a place for a selfie with Mickey and a churro, but I think Disney's best attractions are when they take on difficult subject matter and do it well. I find it incredibly disappointing that today's Disney can't seem to live up to their own legacy of creating experiences that are enjoyable but also leave you with something to think about for the car ride home
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >> I always commend Disney when it is ambitious and attempts to do the unexpected, however this is a sensitive and serious topic that is best left to historians not a corporation in the entertainment business.<< Exactly. America has some very shocking, depressing parts of our history that even today, many can't face. Remember the outcry in the Golden Dreams film when the Chinese laborers were killed? Disney edited the film to soften that moment so that it wouldn't be so upsetting. I can't imagine them being able to show a very graphic look at the realities of slavery in a theme park setting. Disney is great at showing about hopes and dreams and high ideals and aspirations, but less able to delve into the gritty facts and realities.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Great Moments with Mr Lincoln at DL has always addressed slavery and the Civil War<< Only if someone already understands that the civil war was about slavery. The word slavery is never mentioned in Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln. Lincoln's speech and the slideshow that precede it are about keeping the nation together, but there is no specific mention of what, exactly, was pulling the nation apart.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >> But as someone living in the (kind of) south now, I can guarantee you that you will NEVER change the "hearts and minds" of current white southerners.<< Let's be careful not paint with too broad of a brush here. I grew up in the (not "deep") south (moved as a child; no ancestry there) and certainly experienced some rather unsavory folks, but by and large people were very accepting of others. Because everything was so publicized and discussed, it seemed like there are a conscious awareness to not repeat the mistakes of the past. I attended very diverse schools, and was constantly exposed to people who looked different from me, had a different background, and believed different things; and somehow, we all managed to get a long and form a productive society It wasn't until I moved to California (where everything is portrayed as a tapestry of happiness and smiles) that I really experienced widespread racist comments and derogatory terms. I suspect that it was at least partially because the people there believe that they weren't doing anything wrong, but the casualness of statements there was what really shocked me. It also surprised me to see how segregated the various communities were, and often coexisted without ever interacting The south gets a bad reputation, and it is sometimes deserved. There are lots of people there who say and do terrible things, but they are by no means a majority. However, it often seems to me that other areas of the country have problems of their own that are often completely overlooked, because everybody is too busy waiting to see what those crazy southerners do next
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>It wasn't until I moved to California (where everything is portrayed as a tapestry of happiness and smiles) that I really experienced widespread racist comments and derogatory terms.<< I've lived in California my whole life and I can assure everyone that there is no short supply of racists here. I think the difference is that, for too long, that racism seemed to be so overt and state-sponsored in the south. The confederate flag at the statehouse being but one example. But you are 100% correct that California and other states are not nearly as colorblind as advertised.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "And as an aside, although they've gotten a lot more publicity in recent years, I really don't think the Stonewall riots were as big of a turning point as people try to make them out to be." Wow. And with that I'm done.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Let's be careful not paint with too broad of a brush here. I grew up in the (not "deep") south (moved as a child; no ancestry there) and certainly experienced some rather unsavory folks, but by and large people were very accepting of others.>> I have no idea what area you are talking about. I also must admit that I have no idea if SW Missouri (the Ozarks) is representative of anything other than itself. But here an undercurrent of racism combines with extreme conservatism and Bible-thumping fundamentalism to make it one of the LEAST inclusive places I could ever imagine.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>Wow.<< Maybe it's a generational thing, but until about 4-5 years ago, I'd never heard of it. Obama mentioned it in a speech around that time and it's been referenced in general media a lot more since then, but I literally hadn't heard of it until that point. Talking to folks who are around the same age as me, nearly everybody was in the same boat. It seems like became a rallying point within the LGBT community, but was largely forgotten out side of that for the next ~30 years. For the way it's often portrayed as a Montgomery Bus Boycott-type turning point, it's hard to see a parallel when it went unmentioned by the general public for so long. As I mentioned, I've seen it mentioned increasingly in the last few years, but it's also tough for me to overlook how infrequently it was mentioned before then
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>But here an undercurrent of racism combines with extreme conservatism and Bible-thumping fundamentalism to make it one of the LEAST inclusive places I could ever imagine.<< It sounds like your experience is quite different from my own, which just goes to prove that "the south" isn't one monolithic being, as it's often portrayed in the media. I know you've mentioned things about your local politics before that have also referenced the extremism, so it sounds like you've found a rather unusual area (if we can extrapolate from the meaning of "extreme")
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I think the Ozarks is likely very different from most of the South. Challenging physical terrain and difficult conditions have historically kept the area quite isolated, resulting in a monolithic point of view. Racial diversity is almost completely absent. Springfield, the largest city in the area (third largest in Missouri) has a Black population of under 2%.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn I'm glad it was removed. There are certain places where this belongs. EPCOT is not one of those places. I wonder what brouhaha would have erupted if Disney's America theme park was up and running.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<But it isn't a museum. It's a show in a theme park. It references American History, yes, but not every piece of ugly American history is appropriate for presentation at a Disney theme park. Certainly not the Confederate flag casually hanging with flags of other nations. Isis claims to be a sovereign nation too. Should its flag be hung at the American Adventure with the others?>> Forgive me it's been years I haven't seen the show, but should the Two Brothers sequence not be included? Because that's exactly what it addresses.
