Originally Posted By Donny The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal For crying out loud, Donny, at least put the source of your quote. We all know that President Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling at one point. It's disingenuous to post this as if it was your own statement. When the corporate tax rate was higher there was less debt. GE and other corportations can afford to pay taxes and to finance their fair share. That's what needs to happen. The rich are not shouldering their part of the burden and hence we are in the situation we are in now.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 to be fair if one looks at it from a worldwide standard the rich are not paying the same share as other places- that is a true statement. However we also give away more things here thru entitlement programs ( most of which ar have som level of fraud in them) as well as the fact that although corrupt politicians xist everywhere- we may have the top ones here. We all deserve better for what we contribute..but until we get our best and brightest to go into politics we are all in real trouble. There also is a level of incompetency that is frightening. Where the screws have to be put to things are to the corporations who have off shored 12 million white collar jobs in the last 12-14 years- but neither party has the stones to do that. They are beholden to these corp giants and they corps are getting rich by using cheap labor- we take a double hit in lost jobs as well as making our prices higher than most global competitors
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Originally Posted By hopemax I had kind of assumed that when push came to shove, the corporate overlords would force the debt ceiling to be raised. But now I am starting to wonder if they have made a mistake. A timely analogy, in the Tour de France, they don't mind breakaways going off the front, but they don't want them to win. But sometimes they let them get a little far off the front, and they can't pull them back. >2/ Obama is willing to put medicare and social security on the table - at all !! I mean wtf ??? < And even with that the GOP is still saying that Obama is uncompromising. Imagine the shouting if he wasn't willing. And the worse thing, is that independent voters would say the GOP had a point in that Obama was being uncompromising. I mean, if the story was reported that Obama refused to give in to any of the demands of the GOP, would't you think he was being pretty stubborn, and not thinking about the good of the country. Wouldn't you want him to make some concessions? It's not like the GOP has offered reasonable choices for concessions.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <o be fair if one looks at it from a worldwide standard the rich are not paying the same share as other places- that is a true statement.> Very true. <However we also give away more things here thru entitlement programs> Our entitlement programs are actually fairly modest compared with most industrialized countries. <Where the screws have to be put to things are to the corporations who have off shored 12 million white collar jobs in the last 12-14 years- but neither party has the stones to do that. > Totally agree with that.
Originally Posted By gadzuux The president has tried to provide every reasonable solution - he's had public talks, private talks, the Biden talks, the meetings at the white house - offering everything possible, and a few things that might not be possible. But the house republicans continue to hold out for a completely one-sided deal, even though they control one half of one third of the overall government. If a republican president had managed to land a deal that reduced deficits by $4 trillion over ten years, with significant entitlement reform, the same republicans would be crowing about their "victory". Yet because the offer is coming from a democratic president, they turn up their nose at it. ANY democratic president is going to be viewed by republicans as "illegitimate". We saw it with Clinton, and we see it with Obama, where they go after them with hammer and tong - any way possible to claw away at an opposition president. And all the while they congratulate themselves as being "great americans" while simultaneously reducing our entire nation with their actions. In this case, they're willing to bring our entire economy to it's knees, thinking it's politically advantageous to them, hoping that the public will blame the president for their own gross negligence. For that matter, they love to disavow any responsibility for the current deficit at all. Never mind about those two massive tax cuts, two wars on the credit card and never included in the budgets (until Obama came into office), and a huge (and unfunded) prescription drug benefit, which was actually collusion with private pharma. Instead, they say that "This is Obama's deficit - he owns it". Not surprising really - accepting responsibility for their own actions has never been one of the GOP's hallmarks. It's so much easier to point fingers at somebody else and lie.
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Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I think they're dead wrong on this btw..I think this will bite them in the ass big time if it goes down...>> I believe this as well. Over 70% of Americans want the top 2% to pay more in taxes, but Republicans steadfastly refuse to discuss it. Over 70% of Americans do not want Medicare and Social Security privatized, even though Republicans voted in favor of the Ryan budget which would privatize them in 10 years and at a greater cost. Republicans keep gunning for spending cuts without revenue increases, all the while economists and policy experts, even those who worked in past Republican administrations, say it's impossible to eliminate the deficit this way. But the Republicans keep on droning about "tax cuts for the job creators" when over a decade of the Bush tax cuts haven't gained us enough jobs to compensate for the millions of jobs that have been offshored or outright eliminated. After watching all six fake Democrats lose in the Wisconsin special election earlier this week, I feel more hopeful about the change of public perception regarding the Republicans. I think most of the country has finally caught wise to the fact that the GOP only cares about their wealthy corporate masters and/or their own personal political careers, even at the expense of the nation' economic health. The American middle class has been swirling down the toilet bowl for decades. But the American middle class has finally noticed that it's the Republicans who've had their fingers on the flusher all along.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>But the American middle class has finally noticed that it's the Republicans who've had their fingers on the flusher all along.<< Let's don't let the Dems off the hook, please, just because the disaster-du-jour is being ginned up by the GOP. The budget cuts still need to be made, and the real economic calamity is still on its way. All we're doing right now is arguing about the timing. Will it be August 2nd, or at some unknown time in the future? Forcing the issue is insanity, but raising the debt ceiling, saying "wow, glad that's over with", and paying lip service to the problem until the next crisis isn't much better.
Originally Posted By gadzuux House dems are saying that they would be reluctant to vote for McConnell's plan to shift the whole responsibility to the white house without having deficit reduction built into it. So they understand that deficit reduction must occur, just not this year.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Let's don't let the Dems off the hook, please, just because the disaster-du-jour is being ginned up by the GOP.>> Let the Dems off the hook? For what? Two unfunded wars that we didn't need? Tax breaks for the "job creators" that haven't produced any jobs? Medicare Part D that was mainly a sweetheart deal for Big Pharma while steamrolling over Granny's piggy bank with the donut hole gap? The Dems were responsible for these boondoggles how? Bush and the Republican controlled Congress are responsible. And these were the three biggest reasons the deficit soared astronomically under Bush. The GOP is responsible for the mess we're currently in right now. And they're acting like spoiled brats because the Dems -- who still hold the Senate and the WH -- won't cave in completely to their petulant midlle-class-killing demands. I'm sick of all these carpetbaggers like Boehner and Cantor and McConnell. The Republicans are terrible leaders who don't know how to govern and only know how to act like bullies. And the Dems are too afraid of their own shadow to stand up to them. At least Obama is trying to stand up to them. I hope he continues to do so. If the economy gets driven off the cliff by the Republicans refusing to raise the debt ceiling, the American public won't be blaming Obama. Not this time. The Republicans -- who got us into this mess in the first place -- are holding the debt ceiling hostage in order to extract terrible capitulations from the Dems that they would never concede otherwise. And the American public for the most part gets that. Finally. This is an ugly game of political chicken that the Dems should not flinch from. I have hope that they won't. Even if it means the deadline passes without any action, and the Republicans sink our credit rating like the Titanic in the north Atlantic.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>However we also give away more things here thru entitlement programs << I disagree. We don't have a national healthcare system and going to college costs a king's ransom. We spend $100B on food stamps and school lunches. That is simply dwarfed by what we spend on our wars of aggression (which we call "defense").
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Let the Dems off the hook? For what?<< For spending money that was not being collected in revenues. And for the responsibility of fixing the problem after they raise the debt ceiling. All the things you listed were the GOP's fault. But this mess isn't just the things you listed. >>the American public won't be blaming Obama. << Some will, some won't. I 'spect most will blame the government in general, do a lot of whining, maybe march around and yell for the TV cameras a bit, and then vote for the same weasels that are in there now, because after all it wasn't THEIR fault that the rest of Congress sucks.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 We spend $100B on food stamps and school lunches. That is simply dwarfed by what we spend on our wars of aggression (which we call "defense"). --- what about section 8 housing $150B + and I notice you left out the $10.3 trillion spent on welfare that dwarfs the Iraq war cost. You can't pick and choose what you want to include and not .. also the cost of 'state & local ' programs is enormous - and at least in my state the area most filled with corruption and waste. Those who need the assistance are seemingly second to those who can steal from the systems. I agree the wars need to be toned down and removed to as much of an extent as possible. Can we afford to be the world's policeman any longer ? I don't think so .. don't get me wrong, I am not againt entitlement programs as any one of us may need them at some time in their life..and the society I want to live in should be there when needed...but we need to manage them so much better than we do today.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Let the Dems off the hook? For what? < for the same out of control spending that the GOP is guilty of-- it should not be degrees of guilt- but degrees of sanity, and neither party has shown they can or want to do that
Originally Posted By fkurucz "what about section 8 housing $150B." Still a pittance compared to the nearly 1 trillion we spend each year on the military industrial complex. Or should we have Americans starve and live under bridges to protect Halliburton's profit margins? "and I notice you left out the $10.3 trillion spent on welfare that dwarfs the Iraq war cost" And how much did we burn on the military over that same time frame? A lot more. But its only "welfare" that needs to be cut. Meanwhile we spend almost 1 million per year to put a pair of boots on the groundin the middle east. I also read that we spend $20B a year just to A/C our militaty facilities in Afghanistan (that blew me away, talk about burning money), a place that history has demonstrated cannot be controlled.
Originally Posted By fkurucz "for the same out of control spending that the GOP is guilty of-- it should not be degrees of guilt- but degrees of sanity, and neither party has shown they can or want to do that" Unless my memory fails me George W Bush inherited a budget surplus and turned it into a budgetary disaster during his administration, while Dick Cheney chortled that "deficits don't matter". The guy has a lot of gall with his stupid "Miss me?" bumper stickers. Back in 2000 I was a still a Republican and watched with dismay and horror as Bush turned the surplus into an ever worsening deficit.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck One thing this whole mess has convinced me of is that our financial system is nearing the terminal stage. My faith in fiat/digital currency is gone. Why keep money in a bank when it's value is lessened with every new government infusion, and the very future of the dollar is in doubt? Investing the bulk of my "money" into Gold and Silver has helped my net worth considerably, although it is sometimes a volatile ride, it sure feels better than knowing my life savings are nothing more than a blip of computer information that could be obliterated at the whim of a bunch of political creeps.
