Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The 150,000 + to say 500,000'ish taxable income (be it W-2 or especially 1099) is who repeatedly gets screwed time after time after time when it comes to taxes.>> We're on the low end of that range and are very happy to pay the taxes that we do. I've gotta tell you... we are still left with a helluva lot more money than we had when we were poor. If someone would like to start paying me $500,000 a year to manage their database I will be happy to pay the taxes associated with that too.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Well I'mnot willing to pay more taxes. I can barely pay the taxes I owe as it is.>> You're going to pay them one way or another. The current borrow and spend policies have landed us where we are now: a depreciating dollar, which every day buys less and less. A hidden tax if you ask me. Of course that's what happens when you monetize the national debt.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Man was CREATED equal, it's not the Government's role to force us to stay economically equal.>> I rad an interesting book recently called "Deer hining with Jesus". Its about how the lower middle class votes GOP, even though its to their financial detriment.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<That's an easy one. Obama doesn't subscribe to the neo-con theory od "Deficit Spending" economics. "Deficit Spending" ecominics causes inflation, and devaluation of the Dollar. >> Bingo! Inflation is a hidden tax folks.
Originally Posted By Mrs ElderP DVC_dad: You should know as a background to what I say that I have a BA that I paid for myself. I did get some financial help from my parents that I mostly squandered, I also got free housing near the end of my degree when I was still single, a HUGE help. ElderP is finishing an MBA. We have paid for his BA and MBA and will have the student loan payments to prove it. I understand what you are saying about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and think it's a wonderful quality. On the other hand for many poor people school is simply not an option. Some people just don't do well in a classroom, it's not an option. In my perfect world school, from trade school to medical school, to electrical enginering was free (so no one had school debt to pay off) and then there was a way to reward people for how hard they work, not for the brains that got them there. However, I know of no such way. Soviet era Socialism failed miserably in the atempt, this I will not deny. I'd much rather live in our broken capitalist culture than Soviet Socialism. I feel the same way about capitalism that Churchill felt about democracy: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<For example, if I make 50K a year and I have to pay 25% in tax that equals...$12500.00. Leaving me with $37500.00 to live on. If I made $100000 and taxed at 35% that would equal $35000.00 leaving me with $65000.00 to live on. Given the choice which one would I choose. It's a no brain'r.>> The real problem is that the super rich only pay 15% on their "unearned" income. So if Bill Gates wants to buy a $100 million dollar mansion or yacht, he only needs to sell about $118 million of his Microsoft stock to cover his tax liability.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The people who work hard and are able to earn those high incomes are able to do so, in large part, because we have provided the roads they travel on, the infrastructure necessary for a society to function, etc. It's only fair that a person pay their share of taxes to pay for that infrastructure. I think all anyone is asking for here is that everyone pays their fare share. Not "sticking it to the rich" -- just policies that will eliminate some of the free ride they've been enjoying courtesy of this administration in particular. I also believe that part of every future military engagement includes hitting every (and I mean EVERY) citizen with a "war tax". That way, people will understand that there is an actual cost to foreign adventures of the type this president goty us entangled in. If a war is just and necessary, people will pay it gladly. But politicians will damn sure think twice, three, four times before being so ready to trumpet empty slogans when it means voters will immediately feel the heat.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<The 150,000 + to say 500,000'ish taxable income (be it W-2 or especially 1099) is who repeatedly gets screwed time after time after time when it comes to taxes. It's that simple.>> But the really wealthy do not make their income that way. They make it through capital gains and only pay 15% tax.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Mrs ElderP, I am glad to know that you are sympathetic to my opinion. I want to tell you that I respect you and your husband. I think that you two handle yourselves well especially in the face of adversity here and probably elsewhere. I agree, there are those that do not do well in the classroom. There are those who CANNOT make the grades for whatever reason,it just isn't in them. I won't dispute that, its certainly true. I suppose it is possible that I expect too much from the average person walking around out there in the US. Maybe I'm the one thats wrong. I need to consider that.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<But the really wealthy do not make their income that way. They make it through capital gains and only pay 15% tax.>>> yes thats right. And this range isn't the really wealthy. It's the upper middle class that busted ass at some point, and most of the income is good old fashioned W-2 with a 1099 large bonus at year end.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Free Ride? Therein lies the difference in the left and the right. The "grass is always greener and they should share" to the left and "they want to take our hard earned money" to the right. Taxes really do boil down to that. Incidentally, no one has ever given me any free ride.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I also believe that part of every future military engagement includes hitting every (and I mean EVERY) citizen with a "war tax". That way, people will understand that there is an actual cost to foreign adventures of the type this president goty us entangled in.> Wonderful idea.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy Regardless of how people feel about taxes, the harsh reality is that we have trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities. We can't afford Social Security for the Baby Boomers. We can't afford Medicare. We can't afford 100 more years in Iraq. There really is no option to not raise taxes. Personally, I advocate paring back Medicare and Social Security programs, but no politician will ever support that. So, raising taxes is the only option.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad And with that I'm done. I find myself on the wrong side of some sort of invisible line, something I have been telling myself wasn't there. Trippy, maybe sometime we can make that Epcot meet work. You're the best.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And with that I'm done. I find myself on the wrong side of some sort of invisible line, something I have been telling myself wasn't there.>> I don't think there is an invisible line. I think you just have a firm belief that everyone should pay the same percentage of their income in taxes and that the progressive US income tax is unfair. That is certainly a valid opinion to have. I happen to disagree with it, but that makes your opinion no less valid. I believe that the very wealthy should pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes because they have clearly benefited disproportionately from the US economic system and government. If you think that is punishing hard work, do you really think that a company's CEO earning $15,000,000 per year works 1,000 times as hard as the hourly worker earning $15,000? No, those at the top benefit way out of proportion to their education and effort. They have essentially won the corporate lottery. They were in the right place at the right time and are now benefiting massively from it. In my opinion, people like that should pay a larger percentage of their income in taxes than I do. From a practical standpoint, what difference does it really make? How many of those guys are going to be able to spend all of their money anyway?
Originally Posted By ecdc <I also believe that part of every future military engagement includes hitting every (and I mean EVERY) citizen with a "war tax". That way, people will understand that there is an actual cost to foreign adventures of the type this president goty us entangled in.> I say fire up the draft. If ever there was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight, this war is it. I remain in total shock at how many people casually sit on the sidelines cheering this war on and labeling those who don't support it as unpatriotic or not supporting the troops, while themselves refusing to fight or to send their own children to fight. Talk about total cowardice.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<yes thats right. And this range isn't the really wealthy. It's the upper middle class that busted ass at some point, and most of the income is good old fashioned W-2 with a 1099 large bonus at year end.>> All I'm saying is make the capital gains crowd should pay the same tax rates as those who "busted ass" actually earning it.
Originally Posted By X-san ***If you think that is punishing hard work, do you really think that a company's CEO earning $15,000,000 per year works 1,000 times as hard as the hourly worker earning $15,000? No, those at the top benefit way out of proportion to their education and effort. They have essentially won the corporate lottery. They were in the right place at the right time and are now benefiting massively from it.*** The question really isn't whether they "work harder", or even the whole notion of luck or "right place at the right time" and all that. The honest truth about it is that those people are far more VALUABLE to the company than the regular unskilled worker who is, frankly, a dime a dozen commodity. That's capitalism. If it wasn't worth it to the company, the CEO wouldn't earn all that much (even a great one who is a hard worker). Just look at the cream of the crop athletes. Do they "deserve" millions and millions of bucks because they're good at playing a game? Not really. But they are valuable to the franchise cause they drive ticket sales. Simple. And DVC, I apologize for coming off rudely. I was trying to reply in kind to your specific "get a life" post, but you are correct that there's really no point in name calling and it adds nothing to the discussion.
Originally Posted By X-san ***All I'm saying is make the capital gains crowd should pay the same tax rates as those who "busted ass" actually earning it.*** Some people do "bust ass" to make the capital gains thing work. And, they are taking on more risks than most as well. The IRS doesn't do them any favors when they have capital loses.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The honest truth about it is that those people are far more VALUABLE to the company than the regular unskilled worker who is, frankly, a dime a dozen commodity. That's capitalism. If it wasn't worth it to the company, the CEO wouldn't earn all that much (even a great one who is a hard worker).>> I don't buy that. The disparity between the laborer and CEO at a corporation used to be nowhere near that large. Over the past two decades we've watched the gap between the middle class and the wealthy become a canyon. There is kind of a good old boys club where the Board of Directors approving CEO compensation are high level execs in their own companies and it is to their mutual advantage to keep approving the monster compensation packages. Forbes usually lists executive compensation once a year. Take a look at the list. The total compensation usually has very little relationship to the size of the firm, the total sales, or the profits. It is truly wining the Executive Lottery. At least with athletes the salary differences are almost always based upon measurable differences in performance. Not so the CEO's.
