Originally Posted By cheesybaby <<I don't know that Disneyland is aimed at working and middle class any more. It is getting very expensive.>> What is the daily capacity of DL? 70,000 or so? And DCA? About 50,000 or so? Disneyland is aimed at the 120,000 highest bidders.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "But at the end of the day, the value proposition is the theme parks." The parks may be the draw, but without the resort hotels, shopping and entertainment districts, recreational activities and the cruise line you'd have an operation that would resemble DL circa 1955. That is, a fancy amusement park and a parking lot. Now, some of us may not care about all the fluff and diversions beyond the parks, but to say that Disney Parks' primary focus is running amusement parks is kind of ridiculous.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>I don't know that Disneyland is aimed at working and middle class any more. It is getting very expensive.<< They still seem to do a pretty good job pulling people in though. However, the media keeps telling me that there is no more middle class. So, either Disney is still affordable, or there is still a middle class (or even a little bit of both)....
Originally Posted By TP2000 Adventures By Disney, that's your upper-middle class market. Very different than the theme parks, or even cruise line. Disney Cruise Line, that's your solid middle class into upper-middle class market. Theme Parks (especially one-day or off-property motel customers), that's your middle class down into working class market. You can argue that the 500 people out of 75,000 in the park that eat at Blue Bayou or Carthay Circle are big spenders, but even then it's not that big of a deal and it's a tiny proportion of the park visitors. Most folks are having dinner at Tomorrowland Terrace or Pizza Port and buying the kids a t-shirt, a balloon and a spinny toy. Solid middle class stuff there, more of them now than there's ever been, regardless of what the media declares insanely and ineptly. And all those Raider Nation familes of eight trolling the park on Saturdays looking for "the big rides, and the one with the pirates"? There's your working class stiffs out for a fun day at Disneyland. Just don't cross 'em, or Dad will go gangsta on your behind.
Originally Posted By TP2000 And I agree Hans that there's a great many other angles to the Disney theme park biz now; hotels, DVC, property development and management, etc. But I just get the sinking feeling that the top exec team fiddles with all those side dishes because they really have no interest in running theme parks and amusement rides, which is their true core business. And at cocktail parties it's embarassing for them to say they run a theme park, instead of running luxury hotels or cruise lines or timeshare pyramid schemes. There's not much cachet to theme parks and the rides and the middle class bozos who wait in line for two hours to experience the core product they are selling. The Parks Blog and the executives always seem to talk about all the other things found on Disney property, but never really dig into or beam with pride about the rides at the theme parks they operate. It's a theme park. That's all it is. Just a theme park.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo " And at cocktail parties it's embarassing for them to say they run a theme park, instead of running luxury hotels or cruise lines or timeshare pyramid schemes." We have 16 year-olds running the parks?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<The cruise line, Aulani, Adventures by Disney - these are all WDW deluxe resorts without WDW.>> Very true - but all of those ventures are in places that people want to visit already - regardless of whether Disney is there or not. People go to Hawaii as a vacation destination already - now they have a Disney hotel to stay it. Central Florida, and even Anaheim, are very different. You definitely wouldn't see people paying Disney's prices to stay in those hotels at WDW if the theme parks weren't there. And the same is probably true of Anaheim. (Sure, people go to stay in Orange County, but would they choose Anaheim if it wasn't for the theme parks there?) At the end of the day, it's those theme parks that bring people to Disney's Resorts in Florida and Anaheim - and they need to focus on keeping them fresh and innovative if they want to continue to fill those hotel rooms, and have people eating and shopping at their "shopping districts".
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "And at cocktail parties it's embarassing for them to say they run a theme park, instead of running luxury hotels or cruise lines or timeshare pyramid schemes." What's to be embarrassed about when you're talking operating places as remarkable as EPCOT, Disneyland and Animal Kingdom? Sure, theme parks aren't everyone's thing, but neither are cruise ships and fancy hotels.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The cruise line, Aulani, Adventures by Disney - these are all WDW deluxe resorts without WDW. All the high-class stuff execs believe "Disney" is about without the meat and potatoes of a theme park. This is their dream - all the margins of a WDW deluxe resort without the huge overhead and headaches of running an amusement park.>> Of course a MAJOR difference is that the DCL offers a true quality experience, and for the most part WDW no longer does. Also, I am convinced that DCL is a better value. Yes, they are expensive for a cruise line. But the price you pay includes accommodations, meals, and entertainment. No over-priced table-service restaurant meals at close to $50 per person, no $90 per day per person for Park Hopper passes. You pay for your cruise, the booze you drink (considerably lower cost than at WDW because they don't have to pay U.S. liquor tax on the booze served), and the souvenirs you buy. Overall, DCL offers a far better experience at lower cost. We've given up WDW for three years now in favor of DCL. Yes, at times I miss WDW... until I board the Disney Dream and can't imagine any other place I would rather be!!
Originally Posted By tonyanton I agree the DCL is fantastic, offering the quality on a more consistent basis than WDW has in recent years, which is unfortunate. I hope in expansion of the cruise line, quality doesn't start to slip as it has at the parks.
Originally Posted By SuperDry ^^^ The quality of DCL is indeed a refreshing departure from what's been happening at WDW in recent years, and almost surprising. As far as expansion goes, the quality of the two new ships that were placed in service last year and this year are as high if not higher than the original two ships, so even though they've recently more than doubled passenger capacity, quality has not slipped. I think that whomever is managing DCL realizes that keeping the quality at the high point it is is vital to them being able to charge the premium fares that they do. Since they don't seem to have to discount to fill up the rooms on DCL like they do at WDW, I think there's a good chance that DCL quality will not start the slow downward spiral that we've seen elsewhere.
Originally Posted By TP2000 Hans and friends, please pardon my grumpiness on this issue. My cranky vibe is from a recent article I read that has me worried about America's future. The summary is that we we are currently pumping out hundreds of thousands of college kids every spring with "Business Marketing" degrees, and yet we have a critical shortage of farmers, machinists, mechanics and tradesmen in this country. Manufacturing already has a shortage of labor, and simply can't find young people who have been to trade school and are interested in working in a machine shop in an untrendy part of town, let alone a farm in Nebraska. Meanwhile a million Marketing majors work at Starbucks looking for a "career" in marketing with their nearly worthless degree that too many others also have. We have lost almost all respect for the blue collar trained positions that make our society work. At some point, someone has to physically make the thing that all those marketing majors are going to market to each other. There's a loss of respect and value for making things with physical labor in this country. I know that topic is a big leap to Disney theme park executives, but follow me here... The executives currently in top spots at Disney have all come from white collar backgrounds, with a few exceptions. Meg Crofton spent a few decades in HR (HR!?!) before becoming the operations exec that she is now. Rasulo was a strategic finance guy, as was Staggs, etc. These are people who just have no direct connection with the unglamorous nuts and bolts of theme park operations. You rarely hear of them stepping foot in the parks as it is, let alone heading back to the break room to talk with the crew about their jobs. They are sterile, white collar type folks who don't dirty their hands with the mustard and axle grease and cash drawers of the day to day operation. My growing hunch is that it's just not hip enough for them, and they focus on DVC pyramid schemes and luxury housing developments and cruise lines and third party corporate chain restaurants. But their core product, the reason they have their careers, is not because of DVC timeshares or the latest theme restaurant at Downtown Disney. It's because they are running amusement parks with rides. Take away the amusement park rides and the whole thing falls apart and shuts down within 60 days. But they could care less about the amusement park rides, or what condition they are in aesthetically or operationally. You know that famous picture of Walt Disney circa 1960 out walking the park early one morning? He's standing there watching a laborer apply the grease to the streetcar trackswitch on Main Street USA. Walt didn't get down there with the guy and help grease it, but he was genuinely interested in the work this guy was doing to keep the park working right. And as an old Midwest farmboy, Walt knew the value of laborers doing their labor correctly. Not shown in that picture is probably the short but meaningful interaction these two guys had; "Mornin' Walt... Mornin' Bob, how's it goin?.. Oh, fine Walt, just greasing the switches... Gotta keep the thing runnin'!... Sure thing, Walt". Or, maybe Walt just stared at the guy for a few moments and moved on without saying anything. ;-) I just can't see Meg Crofton or Tom Staggs having that same interaction, or stopping quietly to watch someone do a job like that. I can't see Staggs or Crofton wandering around any theme park for their annual visit without a structured itinerary and a small crowd of handlers and a photographer from the Disney Parks Blog to document it, either. They just don't appear to have an interest in the theme park industry and the work it requires to keep it running. That's sad to me.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ I agree with you on all points. We are now turning out 10's of thousands of more-or-less worthless college degrees, while the skilled trades find it increasingly difficult to fill positions. Since a trade school education costs considerably less than a college education, it makes no sense at all. I read an article online at Forbes.com recently on the "Most Surprising $100,000 plus Careers". To make the list at least 10% of the people in the career had to make $100K or more. In all of the careers listed, AVERAGE salaries for all in the field ranged from $60K - $85K. I forget what they all were, but remember that two of them were HVAC careers (Heating, Ventilation & Air Conditioning) and Elevator Maintenance/Repair. Many of the others were also in the skilled trades field and none of them required a typical 4-year degree. I would assume that the training for those careers costs FAR LESS than a 4-year college degree, and yet they can soon be making a salary the your typical Liberal Arts or Business Marketing degree holder will likely never see. You are correct, we have become a nation with people far more interested in selling stuff than in making it. So we run up huge trade deficits buying goods made in foreign countries for our marketing guys to try to sell. Makes no sense whatsoever!!
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt TP, here's an interview with Bob Iger discussing the revamped DCA. In it he sounds very enthusiastic and knowledgeable about the park and Walt's legacy. Maybe things aren't as dire as you think. At least not at the CEO level. <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-09/bob-iger-on-disney-california-adventure" target="_blank">http://www.businessweek.com/ar...dventure</a>
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>The cruise line, Aulani, Adventures by Disney<< Those won't fill hotel rooms in Orlando.
Originally Posted By fkurucz "Now, some of us may not care about all the fluff and diversions beyond the parks, but to say that Disney Parks' primary focus is running amusement parks is kind of ridiculous." Are you serious? Do you really believe that the typical visitor would book a room at WDW if there were no theme parks? As I said before, they are the differentiators, the value proposition. The reason to go. All the other stuff is icing on the cake. I don't need to go to hot and humid Orlando for fine dining or to stay at a fancy (and overpriced) hotel.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Are you serious? Do you really believe that the typical visitor would book a room at WDW if there were no theme parks? Yes I'm serious. Not sure what you mean by "typical" but I'd be willing to bet that there is a sizeable number of guests staying at WDW properties that are only marginally interested in visiting the parks or don't visit them at all. WDW and Orlando are huge convention destinations. and therefore host large numbers of business travelers. Of course the parks are the tent poles, but I stand by my remarks that Disney's other operations warrant significant resources and that Disney Parks and Resorts if far more than a collection of "fancy theme parks".
Originally Posted By Kidz-n-k9s <<WDW and Orlando are huge convention destinations>> A friend of mine stayed at the Animal Kingdom Lodge for a convention and never set foot in the parks. I thought she was crazy, but she isn't a Disney or theme park person. What she did say was that the Lodge was not well set up for a business traveler, and she did start to feel like an outsider with most of the people staying there on family vacations. She wouldn't stay on the property again for business travel, but thought it was a great place for a family vacation.
