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Originally Posted By pheneix >>>Okay, you believe what you want. The truth is, you are part of the minority and it isn't growing like you think. The proof will be in the pudding a few years from now.<<< All because you said so. BTW, a thought has just crossed my mind regarding the whole Paridise Pier/Walt debate. It's true that none of us know what Walt's tastes were, but, you have to wonder... If Walt were to come back from the grave today, at the dawn of the 21st Century, that for the first theme park to sit along side of Disneyland, with all of the money and technology Disney has, that he would be happy that one of the highlights (and I use the term for the sake of disscussion only) of this park is a section that glorifies the almighty seaside amusement park? (On a side note, wouldn't it be nice if I had enough time to properly think about how to write my posts, so I could use proper grammar and spelling?) Pheneix
Originally Posted By hopemax Here's a quote for you pheneix, and this is just for pheneix no one else has to read it. "The span of years has not much alterned my fundamental ideas about mass amusement. Experience has merely perfected the style and the method and the techniques of presentation." This is a Walt quote, from the "Quotable Walt Disney."
Originally Posted By tangaroa "...with all of the money and technology Disney has, that he would be happy that one of the highlights of this park is a section that glorifies the almighty seaside amusement park?" ... only to tell him a few minutes later that the best theme park in the world was built in Japan... with his name on it!
Originally Posted By Scutr Disneylandking: >>I think we should bow out here.<< Not a problem. >> This is a hostile environment anyway << It certainly is, pretty hard to wade through all this stuff just to see if you posted a reply, too!
Originally Posted By JeffG >> "I'm not sure making inflammatory comments about 1955 DL rides is the best way to get people to stop making inflammatory comments about 2001 DCA rides. If it is ignorant and too simplistic to call the Maliboomer an "off-the shelf carny ride" why is it okay to call Dumbo one?" << I haven't really seen anyone making inflamatory comments about Dumbo or other early Disneyland attractions. At least for me, pointing out that they are variations on common amusement rides from that time period is not a complaint. I rather like those rides. I also don't recall anybody calling Dumbo an "off-the-shelf" ride. Just like nearly all of the rides in Paradise Pier, Dumbo was clearly custom desgined and themed. The main point that a few of us are making is that Walt's own designs did not suggest that he had some sort of deep hatred towards the types of rides that existed at other 1950s-era amusement parks. The quotes that have been provided sound like fairly typical marketing-speech, intended to try and set his park apart from the competition of the time. Let's not forget that one of Walt's key skills was his salesmanship. I hardly think they define his views towards these kinds of attractions. As I've said before, I really don't know what Walt would think about Paradise Pier if he were alive today. Walt did have a fondness for storytelling through cutting-edge technology, so perhaps the fairly light narrative elements and the fairly old-fashioned style of that part of the park wouldn't appeal to him. On the other hand, Walt also showed an immense fondness for history and nostalgia in his work as well. That side of him might have found Paradise Pier very appealing as a reminder of a form of entertainment that he enjoyed in his youth, but which has now largely faded away. In the end, I think this whole debate over Paradise Pier clearly boils down to individual tastes and preferances. Trying to second-guess the preferences of someone that has been dead for almost 35 years is not a particularly useful measure. -Jeff
Originally Posted By DisneyAce <<When the park finally started getting into the black in 1959, Walt invented something really wonderful.. the E Ticket. And never again was a carny ride built in Disneyland. It was all uphill from there.>> Sorry to challenge you here Tang', but Disneyland has had many 'off-the shelf' themed rides added to it since 1959, here we go: 1967: Rocket-Jets (higher than the Astro-Jets and themed) 1983: Pinochio Daring Journey (Same great dark-ride taste). 1984: Alice in Wonderland (Same dark-ride taste). 1993: Mickeys house, minnies House, Donald Ducks Boat and ChipnDale treehouse (nothing more than update dated versions of funhouse walk thoughs with slides, net crawls and fun mirrors). Goofy's Bounce House (cool permanent structure, but no more advancement of a bounce house than you would see at church/state fair). Gadget Go-Coaster (not a themed coaster, but a simple rollercoaster like all the other childrens one, again though, a better themed one). 1998: Astro-Orbitor (Same as rocket jets, a better themed version of a off-the-shelf spinner). 2003: Possibly Pooh (dark ride with some better ride effects). Disney have generated many E-Tickets during the period mentioned and it definitly went uphill ((man I'm feeling dirty dissing the original)), but besides much more detail and themeing to tell a story, the rides mentioned above are very much off-the-shelf. Though I like your ideas of what else could be added to DCA in the future.
Originally Posted By MackAttack Actually, there were more off-the-shelf rides added to Disneyland than you mentioned. They include: 1987 - Star Tours (this ride technology was not new and had already been in use by various companies in the country for flight training long before Disney decided to add it to Disneyland. Disney was smart by signing an exclusive agreement with the "outside" builder of the ride units to not allow the use of the simulator by any other company for entertainment purposes for a specific amount of time. That exclusive time has since elasped and now any company who can afford to purchase these units can use them - like Sea World did when they put in their Antartic ride several years ago) 1989 - Splash Mountain (this ride is truly an off-the-shelf ride that had a Disney show wrapped around the flume. The company that designed and built the flume was involved in a lawsuit from Disney because they made the flume too small for the size of logs that were originally built. Apparently the contractor misread the plans regarding the size of the flume. The flume was completely designed and built by an outside company under the direction of WDI) The only true Disney designed ride systems that didn't borrow from existing technology was Indy and Rocket Rods and now Soarin Over California.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Disney have generated many E-Tickets during the period mentioned and it definitly went uphill ((man I'm feeling dirty dissing the original)), but besides much more detail and themeing to tell a story, the rides mentioned above are very much off-the-shelf.>> First of all, nothing mentioned came out of a catalog or off the shelf. You simply can't get Disney themed ride vehicles out of Sears and Roebuck. Disney imagineers it and then sends out bids to contractors to build and install. That is not off the shelf, that is custom designed and built to Disney specs. A very big difference. Maybe the dark rides in Fantasyland play to a younger audience, all though it really doesn't, but that in no way makes them a lifeless, steel and typical carney ride.
Originally Posted By tangaroa I was referring to Walt's time. Walt didn't add a single carny ride to Disneyland after 1959. The AstroJets were simply moved.
Originally Posted By pheneix The key difference between Splash Mountain and a ride like, say, Maliboomer is that Splash Mountain had a charming story to be built around, incredible themeing (to the point that the fact that it's in the same catagory as the log flume at the state fair is moot, and to even consider that is ridiculous, even if there is some truth to it), and a ton of money put into it. The fact that the head of the project is by far the closest thing to Walt in the late 20th/early 21st century probably helped to. There are many more differences that I am sure someone else will mention but my point is made. Splash Mountain (and for that matter Grizzly River Run) is on a whole different PLANET than the off-the-shelf rides found at PP. >>>"...with all of the money and technology Disney has, that he would be happy that one of the highlights of this park is a section that glorifies the almighty seaside amusement park?" ... only to tell him a few minutes later that the best theme park in the world was built in Japan... with his name on it!<<< You know, I had never even thought of that one... Hopemax, good quote to pull up now. I can't even imagine what Walt would create with the technology we have today. Pheneix
Originally Posted By DisneyAfternooner "Hopemax, good quote to pull up now. I can't even imagine what Walt would create with the technology we have today" Probably some boring high tech circle vision show.
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<First of all, nothing mentioned came out of a catalog or off the shelf. You simply can't get Disney themed ride vehicles out of Sears and Roebuck. Disney imagineers it and then sends out bids to contractors to build and install. That is not off the shelf, that is custom designed and built to Disney specs. A very big difference.>> Sorry Crapshoot, but you are wrong again. Now, the Sears comment maybe true, but these "off-the-shelf" rides like the ones listed by DisneyAce and myself were completely predesigned rides (with the exception of the Toontown houses - excluding Goofy's) that were modified by Disney after the fact. In some cases, the overdressing was designed by WDI and then the specs and/or pieces given to the outside ride builders to modify the pre-existing ride components to accommodate the attachments. In other cases, WDI recieved the completed ride and then modified it at the Disney shops in Glendale. Regardless, they are out-and-out real, honest-to-God, "off-the-shelf" rides not unlike any other one. Disney did not design any of these rides from a mechanical standpoint and then give them to an outside builder to make. Any other theme park company can go and request the very same ride systems from the very same ride builders for their parks and then overdress the system however they would like. In the case of Splash, the outside company that designs and builds log flume type rides worked alongside WDI on the layout of the flume, but the outside company did all of the design work on the flume itself as it was their "product" and not a WDI "product." That makes it an "off-the-shelf" ride system that was simply customized in the layout. Now, Indy, Rocket Rods/Test Track and Soarin are all original in their designs that were either completely designed in-house by WDI or partnered with an outside company to design, but you cannot find those types of ride systems anywhere else.
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<The key difference between Splash Mountain and a ride like, say, Maliboomer is that Splash Mountain had a charming story to be built around, incredible themeing (to the point that the fact that it's in the same catagory as the log flume at the state fair is moot, and to even consider that is ridiculous, even if there is some truth to it), and a ton of money put into it. The fact that the head of the project is by far the closest thing to Walt in the late 20th/early 21st century probably helped to. There are many more differences that I am sure someone else will mention but my point is made. Splash Mountain (and for that matter Grizzly River Run) is on a whole different PLANET than the off-the-shelf rides found at PP>> You are comparing apples to oranges there Pheneix. A Splash Mountain attraction would stick out like a sore thumb in PP because it would not reinforce the theme and story of PP. Whereas Maliboomer does exactly what it is suppose to, reinforce that this land in DCA is themed to a seaside amusement park and features the type of rides commonly found in those type of parks. Guys and gals, PP may not sweep you off your feet, but it does serve exactly what it was intended to do - represent a very prominent part of California's history (and to a much lesser extent current) of seaside amusement parks. If you don't like this area, fine, but the area does make perfect sense for DCA and fits very well in the park.
Originally Posted By DisneyAce <<The key difference between Splash Mountain and a ride like, say, Maliboomer is that Splash Mountain had a charming story to be built around,>> Sorry to cut your qoute Pheneix, in the dozens of dozens of boards posted. PP the area itself and its rides (not attractions) are the theme. Their is no story to it, I would be sick it they tried to theme California Scream'in or Maliboomer. The area "is a tribute to the classic board walks of the past century that used to be along the california coast". The quote was taken from the disney magezine. The area is put you in a different place and no, I seriously question if someone could find as clean, courteous and thrilling a board walk along the California coast as PP, Santa Monica, while nice to hang out, it a 1 compared to PP 10 IMO. The area was never mean't to be a story, Disney tried something new and Paul Presseler himself said 'while at Disneyland it is about the story, at Disney's California Adventure it is about the experience. That, we felt, would be the perfect compliment to the Disneyland Resort Experience,". For people to continue to BASH (sorry I mean't creativily critize) DCA, particulally paradise pier for being off the shelf is PETTY. Paradise Pier purpose was to, again, pay tribute to the piers of past and offer a thrilling collection of rides to invoke that charm, I think that they hit their target on the bullseye. If you want stories, go to the park next store, if you want a disney version of a thrill park, that is as much a compliment to Knott's as it is to Disneyland, DCA is the way to go. And in time, those who critize DCA will eventually learn to enjoy it. Jim seems to now, so there is hope.
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Originally Posted By tangaroa "Now, Indy, Rocket Rods/Test Track and Soarin are all original in their designs that were either completely designed in-house by WDI or partnered with an outside company to design, but you cannot find those types of ride systems anywhere else." See this is where the continuity goes south. Disney ownes the patten on several concepts behind Indy's EMV technology. They didn't build it though, so yes they contracted out the work, but they designed it themselves. But Disney also owns several pattens for the log flume technology used on Splash Mountain. Yes they contracted most of the work out, but the design of the flume system was done by WDI. And the subsequent problems with installation that resulted in it being so many months late was also the fault of WDI.
Originally Posted By tangaroa And to follow up on that.... I wonder how much of screamin was actually designed by Imagineers.
