Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> Or do some really believe that Dumbo is more like an off-the shelf carny ride than the Maliboomer? << Some may think exactly that if they're the type who has a difficult time judging the quality and characteristics of good design -- or couldn't care less about the matter. Regardless how they or others define "off-the-shelf," I think better design is more evident in Disneyland's Dumbo than in DCA's aesthetically-challenged Mailboomer. The two would be closer in marginal visual quality if the Dumbo of **decades** ago were used as a comparison point. But this is the 21st Century (!), not the 1950s or 1960s, so context is different. (If Walt Disney built the original Fantasyland **today**, in the Year 2001, he'd deserve criticism. However, he'd deserve some benefit of the doubt too if he were still struggling with the modest financial resources that challenged him in the 1950s, still hadn't set THE standard for the amusement-park industry to follow (or be envious of), and was serving a public with the lower, less sophisticated expectations of the 1950s, early 1960s.) It's bad enough that Mailboomer's height forces its clunky, tacked-on appearance to be seen far and wide. But I noticed, when standing next to the tower, that even its lighting system is overly intrusive and not designed in a way that enhances the setting around the base of the tower, or certainly lends charm to it. Ironic that the equipment that aggravates the homeliness of the tower during the day softens the look of it at night.
Originally Posted By KanakiKid DisneyAce wrote: "Paradise Pier purpose was to, again, pay tribute to the piers of past and offer a thrilling collection of rides to invoke that charm,. . ." I think this is a "chicken and egg" arugment. Was PP originally thought up without too much concern about budgets or was the budget paramount and space had to be filled as inexpensively (of course NOT cheap) as possible? Saying PP is a tribute to the CA boardwalks of bygone times sounds like justifying talking points. I enjoy seeing PP at sunset as much as anyone else, but that wasn't anything that Disney dreamed up. Going back over 100 years, carny operators have been putting up flashy light displays on their rides in order to make the rides look better than they actually were. How about Disney creating an homage to the suburban shopping centers in CA of the last half of the 20th century? They can create a huge show building with a neon D-mart sign that houses acres and acres of character merchandise. For attractions they can use period amusement attractions that include a rocking horse, a bouncing SUV car and a cute elephant that moves up and down. It would surely invoke the time and place of subrban shopping centers of old just like PP invokes seaside boardwalks of old. To quote DisneyAce quoting Paul Pressler (PP?): 'while at Disneyland it is about the story, at Disney's California Adventure it is about the experience. That, we felt, would be the perfect compliment to the Disneyland Resort Experience,"
Originally Posted By plpeters70 I have to agree with Disneywatcher, I can't believe that people are actually using the argument that because Disneyland opened with some off-the-shelf type rides, that it's ok for DCA to do so as well. I'm sorry, but that was 1955 -- this is 2001!! For a Disney park to open today with carnival attractions is just sad - and speaks volumes about the mentallity of the people in charge of the parks. I'll criticize DCA for it, and I'll criticize TDS for it's Mermaid Lagoon section as well. (Yes, the theming is beautiful, but again, this is 2001 - I think they could have comeup with some more appealing family style attractions for they're Little Mermaid section.) If Disney want's to stay on top of the theme park industry then they need to start innovating again, and stop just trying to get by.
Originally Posted By cstephens For the "Paradise Pier is filled with carny rides" crowd: do you consider King Triton's Carrousel a "carny ride"? /cs (who doesn't even really know what a "carny ride" is)
Originally Posted By AGKoolAid There is absolutely nothing wrong with off-the-shelf ride systems. What you do with them is what should matter. Disney has done a good job doing what it can to off-the-shelf ride systems to make them fit in with the themeing of the areas. What I think many people blow over them is the difference between the off-the-shelf ride systems versus the final outcome. At least while comparing them between Disneyland & any park that isn't Disneyland. All the arguments being said about all those Disneyland attractions that are "..different because it's like the movie", or the excuses I hear about Dumbo being ok. I'm not against Dumbo at all, but it's no different than any other of those circular rides. You're sitting in a fiberglass elephant on a stick (hmmm....I smell an odv merchandising breakthru). Just because you're sitting in an elephant instead of a rocket, magic carpet, ww2 airship (like at Knotts), or a killer whale (sf marine world), doesn't make it any less off the shelf than a non themed one. The term for "off-the-shelf" is not talking about the final product, but the system that makes it go. Themeing an off-the-shelf ride doesn't no longer make it not off-the-shelf. In other words, no matter how dressed up Snow White's Scary Adventures is, or what technology it uses in it's "show", the ride system is still off-the-shelf. Same goes for the whole Dumbo argument. Just because the actual ride vehicle is dressed up (such as the dark rides or dumbo), doesn't mean it's not off-the shelf anymore. Saying it is is basically agreeing that "orange stinger is off the shelf because it's just plain swing seats (never mind the huge themed orange structure the ride is housed in) which is wrong by Disney standards, but riding through PotC in a blue/green/red non themed boat is ok." Thats double standards if I ever knew it. Both ride are themed well for what they are to accomplish, both ride vehicles are not themed at all (so help me if anyone uses the "but potc is in a boat...pirates use boats" excuse, I'm gonna ...uh...laugh real hard). Andrew <a href="http://www.agkoolaid.com" target="_blank">http://www.agkoolaid.com</a>
Originally Posted By tangaroa "tangaroa...patent " oh yeah. Like polynesian tiki gods have the greatest grasp of the english language!
Originally Posted By tangaroa Do I have a problem with King Triton's carousel? Actually I don't. I think it's really cute and definately well theme'd for the area. On the other hand, I've been on it once and will probably never ride it again. And what's the fun in that? How many different ways are there to spin a person around? The only loophole is that a carousel is an amusement park tradition. It's almost like the bell on a ship. The carousel is the park's soul. And a carousel (even a reject one from DisneySea) is an important part of any park.
Originally Posted By death from below I have to jump in here, first time post on this site. I have not been to DCA yet, we are going in December. I am looking forward to going to DCA as much as DL. I have been going to DL for the past 25 years, at least once a year. So the whole expansion will be new to us. I have to defend my favorite park in No. Cal, Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk (SCBB). MackAttack said that SCBB was dirty and had dirty carnie people operating the rides. I have going to SCBB since I was just a baby (33 years ago), I am California Native. Sure about 10 or 15 years ago it had gotten pretty bad, but they have cleaned the place up. Most of the ride op's are friendly, hard working people. The whole experience at SCBB is great; a great classic woody, some classic dark rides, the ocean just a few yards away from the rides. Sure, most of the rides are carnie rides, but they are kept up and are quite fun. My kids love going there, they have a great selection of kid's rides. The merry-go-round is just plain fun, where else on the West Coast can you get to throw metal rings into a clowns mouth while moving up and down on a horse going in circles. So, MackAttack if you have not been to SCBB lately, maybe you should make a up here. See for yourself how much it has changed. Yes, there still is that "wonderful" housing right next to it, but even that has been cleaned up. Please, everyone come to the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk and see what a classic seaside amusement park is like. Even the drive on Highway 17 is part of the adventure. Jim, great article!!!!
Originally Posted By cstephens tangaroa wrote: > Do I have a problem with King Triton's carousel? Actually I don't. I think it's really cute and definately well theme'd for the area. If you're posting this in response to my post, your response doesn't actually answer my question. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand this whole "carny ride" thing. > On the other hand, I've been on it once and will probably never ride it again. And what's the fun in that? How many different ways are there to spin a person around? But then isn't that just you? I see lots of people on the carrousel. Personally, that carrousel was one of my favorite rides when I first started going to DCA. That was the one thing I wanted to go on each trip. The carrousel at DL does nothing for me. /cs
Originally Posted By meomi Hey Welcome Death From Below, One thing I learned, these very esoteric DCA debates are sort of confusing if you are looking forward to going to the park. For some reason, I can't understand this phenomenon, everyone has taken this really hard left or right view on the park... Anyhow, I went to DCA and I loved it and I am not really one extreme or other. I can see that it will grow and change just like every other park in the Disney lineup. Just a welcome to you, glad you post, and don't let these debates throw you, everyone here loves each other... (umm yeah.) anyhow, if you really want to enjoy the park read up on the food and the attractions and stuff, maybe the opinions.... If you want to know anything specific, you can see we are all sort of experts! (in our own way...)
Originally Posted By jonvn I think that's pretty much right on. From what I've seen, most people who simply go to the park to enjoy themselves, and do not have a pre-disposed attitude to dislike the place, enjoy their visit. There have been numerous reports on here saying things like "I don't understand what the complaints are about," and so on. The fact of the matter is that the place is just an amusement park. The most reasonable intense negative reaction that should be generated by the park would be boredom. If you don't like a theme park, it is boring. If you're bored with something, most people generally just avoid the item. If you're feeling much more hostile reactions than that, and for an extended period of time, then that's a bit off from the norm, to put it nicely. I mean, it's one thing to feel like you really disliked the place and got ripped off, but extending it beyond that, or having these feelings without ever visiting is really kind of different. As the above poster states, if you haven't gone to DCA, go and have fun. It's a pretty good time for a day, and you'll probably enjoy it. Most people seem to. And if not, well, no one is telling you to go back.
Originally Posted By woody Good advice. DCA just received lots of trees and shade. <a href="http://www.dcacentral.com/dca/showgallery.asp?ID=29&page=5" target="_blank">http://www.dcacentral.com/dca/ showgallery.asp?ID=29&page=5</a> Just AMAZING!!! DCA has tons of Arts and Crafts tables. <a href="http://www.dcacentral.com/dca/showgallery.asp?ID=29&page=5" target="_blank">http://www.dcacentral.com/dca/ showgallery.asp?ID=29&page=5</a> They fixed the walkways and added more seats and shading at the shows. I think the complaints worked. ENJOY!!! The rides (or lack of) is another story.
Originally Posted By woody The DCA Arts and Crafts link is here: <a href="http://www.dcacentral.com/dca/showgallery.asp?ID=29&page=22" target="_blank">http://www.dcacentral.com/dca/ showgallery.asp?ID=29&page=22</a> More sage advice: DCA is just an amusement park. Another park for Disney to take 10 years to fix. Not that you mind, or do you?
Originally Posted By Nautilus Walt Disney wanted Disneyland built a good distance away from the shore because he didn't want anyone to confuse his Grand amusement park with the common seaside carnival. Despite the possible "off the shelf" nature of any of Disneylands attractions, people knew right from the get-go that there was nothing ordinary about Walt's Park. I think thats the problem with DCA. For the people outside looking in, the most visual aspects of the park look ordinary and common. That is to say...DCA looks rather unusual by Disney standerds. Weather Walt disliked "Carney Rides" or not, I dont know. But I do think DCA may suffer for some time to come, from a perception problem that Walt Disney ingenuously avoided.
Originally Posted By Nautilus excuse me...that should have said ingeniously, as in: skillfully avoided. as for the other misspellings...Oh, what the hay.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Walt Disney wanted Disneyland built a good distance away from the shore because he didn't want anyone to confuse his Grand amusement park with the common seaside carnival." Walt Disney built his theme park where he built it because the Stanford Research Institute told him that the area was going to be the Southern California population center in 10 years. "Despite the possible "off the shelf" nature of any of Disneylands attractions, people knew right from the get-go that there was nothing ordinary about Walt's Park." Walt's park was a conglomeration of several different parks that were already in existence at the time. It was a nice park, but there already were amusement parks around that were not near the beach. I think the problem here is that people are a bit too willing to swallow long time corporate marketing nonsense, which put an unrealistic twist on things especially when people do not know or are willing to ignore the facts of the matter. "Whether Walt disliked "Carney Rides" or not, I dont know. But I do think DCA may suffer for some time to come, from a perception problem that Walt Disney ingenuously avoided." He didn't ingeniously avoid anything. He filled his park with these types of rides from day one. He continued to fill his park with these sorts of rides until his death. Everyone thinks that every ride he did was POTC. It wasn't. Most of the rides he put in were standard amusements. He even put in a circus, which is generally much more dirty and "carny" than these oh so horrible boardwalk amusements. These arguments simply don't hold water.
Originally Posted By dlpostcardguy As the 35th parade said--HOT-HOT-HOT! A few comments: Where did it ever say that Walt hated carny rides, people? I was always under the impression that he didn't like the element that existed around them. I, for one, love being able to ride a more traditional type roller coaster in a Disney theme park! Ride a swing ride in a Disney theme park! Ride a very cool raft ride in a Disney theme park! OK, my point being that many have said that "if I want to do this or that I'll go to Magic Mountain". I really don't see that as an option. Some of the rides at MM are lot's of fun but I never feel the magic at MM (nor do I really feel safe or that sense of "home" that I feel at a Disney park). To say DCA is ordinary seems a bit much. Maybe it's ordinary compared to Disneyland but it still has that Disney magic. Yes they did mis-judge on some things and they are slowly fixing them. (Yes, they are still mis-judging such as taking Eureka out-something you would never see at Knott's or MM--but they are making improvements.) I wonder if we would be having such heated debates if there were a few more "E-tickets" on opening day or if there were a few less stucco walls. My point being is I don't think PP is a bad idea but everyone is bagging on it due to a few other missteps they made.
Originally Posted By hopemax Unfortunatly jonvn, the arguments that you object to, aren't the only ones that don't hold water. At least IMO. Why don't we talk about the circus that was in DL. What happened to it, and what lessons did that management learn from it?
Originally Posted By woody >>>I think the problem here is that people are a bit too willing to swallow long time corporate marketing nonsense, which put an unrealistic twist on things especially when people do not know or are willing to ignore the facts of the matter. That doesn't make sense. You mean Disney fans believed the corporate marketing of years past. Then in the present, long time marketing is no longer to be believed because facts or current marketing tell us otherwise... that DCA carny rides are no different than Disneyland carny rides. I'm sure WDC wants us to forget Walt. Who's he? And maybe Disneyland wasn't a surprise success from Day 1. I wonder how TDS is doing. <a href="http://www.quicken.com/investments/news/story/djbn/?story=/news/stories/dj/20011009/BT20011009001934.htm&symbol=DIS" target="_blank">http://www.quicken.com/investm ents/news/story/djbn/?story=/news/stories/dj/20011009/BT20011009001934.htm&symbol=DIS</a> "operating profit for the first six months ended Sept. 30 rose 15% " "The better-than-expected result is attributed to the opening of Tokyo DisneySea on Sept. 4, in addition to larger-than-projected crowds at Tokyo Disneyland. Revenues likely climbed 29% to Y114 billion, Y8 billion higher than previously predicted. Visitors to the two amusement parks totaled 9.29 million, up 17%, compared with the 8.4 million initially expected." I guess OLC is still holding on to the long time Disney corporate marketing.
