Originally Posted By Briguy1314 "They could have built a real woodie instead of a fake one."" I wonder why they didn't. " 1. The noise factor: The city wouldnt let them build a loud wooden coaster. 2. Comfort: they wanted a smooth ride, that everyone could enjoy, and not complain about! 3. Technology: they wanted a launch and a loop and they really couldnt do it effectivly with a wooden coaster. All of that lead them to build a steel coaster, themed like a wooden one to fit into the pier.
Originally Posted By Scutr Let me start by saying: a) I have not been there b)from the pics I've seen, I think Paradise Pier IS pretty BUT- Sorry Jim, no amount of explanation about how long this has been on the boards, or how many little design doo-hickeys it has, has made me want to visit DCA. If I want to visit an old-fashioned boardwalk-type amusement park with a carny-atmosphere I'll stay right here in my own backyard & do just that - go to the boardwalk. There is nothing that has been said about DCA, either by word-of-mouth, or by Disney's press-releases, that has made me want to stash away every spare penny to make the trip out west.(and believe me, I look for every excuse to do just that) And it should have! In fact, the money that HAD been set-aside for a DL trip(back when I first heard about a second park opening at DL) was poured back into the household budget instead. This may have been the park that Disney wanted to build, (and may yet turn into a nice addition to the 'Disney family') but it clearly isn't the park that the public wanted to get. BTW, I find your comment: >>Not the eye of an unrealistic Disney dweeb who insists that every single attraction that the Imagineers burp out must be up to "Indiana Jones Adventure" standards<< HIGHLY offensive! If I had posted that on these discussion boards I'd expect it to be Admined. I seriously don't appreciate reading it from a columnist.
Originally Posted By disneylandking >>Not the eye of an unrealistic Disney dweeb who insists that every single attraction that the Imagineers burp out must be up to "Indiana Jones Adventure" standards<< Sorry scutr, but I LOVED THAT! I about fell out of my chair laughing on that one. GO JIM! Call them the way you see them. His words reflect what he sees on the boards. And if you find it highly offensive, maybe it describes you, I don't know. What I do know is that comment was appropriate and right on!
Originally Posted By tangaroa "What I do know is that comment was appropriate and right on!" If people are so quick to complain about other DCA press, why can't we complain about this? Jim's article was offensive, and although I like the excitement of a good debate and argument, I'm surprised this was even allowed on LaughingPlace. His article made it seem as though he had to lecture those of us who disagree with him and tell us how it really is suppose to be, so we could catch up to all the other kids in the class. One thing that's makign me wonder, is why all the DCA supporters have to put themselves on such a high pedestal to justify their position? Whats up with that?
Originally Posted By leemac As attendance figures are not released by Disneyland for DCA, the estimates in the newspapers are always off-kilter. On Opening Day, the figures in the local press ranged from a very "precise" 11,500 to 28,000. A big margin of error for anyone. DCA is designed for the average guest. Thank God that the majority of guests are not the negative nay-saying dweebs that spend all day writing hate mail about the park on these discussion boards. When I was in the park last week, the day of the Haunted Mansion Event, the majority of guests were average families...the Disney freaks were in Disneyland trading pins all day long.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >>>>> From Jim Hill's essay: ...if you can just look past the surface -- you'll see that a ton of time, talent and money was poured into making this nostalgic recreation of a 1920s / 1930s Boardwalk amusement area look just right. <<<<< As I've noted before, personal preferences and taste are major factors in the way a lot of projects turn out. From my point of view, DCA's shortcomings, with a focus on its Paradise Pier, can be traced to that more than the money issue alone. This reminds me of the cases of the so-called nouveau riche (people of modest background who've come into wealth later in life) building and furnishing homes -- in Beverly Hills, for example -- that, while expensive, are known as the epitome of poor taste and for surprisingly second-rate architectural work. >>>>> Because anyone who's familiar with Disney's plans for the Port Disney project in Long Beach knows that an old fashioned boardwalk area...was featured prominently as part of that proposed resort's theme park complex, Disney Seas. ....Now let's jump uphead to 1993, when Disney unveiled its plans for a history theme park in Virginia. What's that tucked away in the middle of "Disney's America?" Why, it's the "State Fair".... <<<<< I've sometimes wondered if the version of DisneySea that **was** built never included a very outdoors-oriented Paradise Pier-type area because of the greater number days of rain, wind and snow in Tokyo Bay. But, then again, Virginia comes closer to Tokyo than Anaheim (or Long Beach) in the area of climate, so I would suspect that personal preferences and taste in this matter too outweigh other factors. >>>>> Disney opting to include Paradise Pier as part of Disney's California Adventure wasn't just some decision based solely on budgetary considerations. This particular area has obviously been a long standing dream for some of the Imagineers. <<<<< Someone at the DisCo. must really love the concept because the new theme area going up at Animal Kingdom is a re-creation of a roadside carnival. I will say that Jim Hill's article makes me realize Michael Eisner is not the only one who has a fondness for the Paradise-Pier concept. I've read quotes from Tim Delaney, lead designer of the Pier area, that express warm recollections of his days spent at the Long Beach Pike. >>>>> They crammed plenty of quality into the area. So -- on those merits alone -- Paradise Pier isn't something that we should be dismissing. It's actually an area in DCA that Disneyana fans should be actively celebrating. <<<<< And if Michael Eisner, Barry Braverman, Tony Baxter, Paul Pressler, Cynthia Harris, etc., etc., share such sentiments, this -- more than anything else -- explains why DCA turned out the way it did and why it may evolve in a certain fashion over the next several years. It also illustrates, once again, that the quality of people's perceptions, judgement and decisionmaking -- and, particularly when it comes to the kind of industry that Disney is in, creativity too -- is a key factor behind the strength or weaknesses of many projects, organizations, businesses, anything. If I didn't think this, I'd claim that the only or major reason something like, say, many of the school districts of urban L.A. are providing such mediocre education is because of a lack of money, money, money. By the way, thanks to a link provided by hopemax on the LP.com Tokyo Disneyland board, this is the latest news on the dollars-dollars-dollars, money-money-money aspect of the Disney park that really **does** exist next to the seaside: >>>>> TOKYO (Nikkei)--Amusement park operator Oriental Land Co. estimates consolidated operating profit for the first six months ended Sept. 30 rose 15% on year to Y7.5 billion, compared with an initial forecast of Y4.4 billion, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported in its Wednesday morning edition, citing company sources. The better-than-expected result is attributed to the opening of Tokyo DisneySea on Sept. 4, in addition to larger-than-projected crowds at Tokyo Disneyland. Revenues likely climbed 29% to Y114 billion, Y8 billion higher than previously predicted. Visitors to the two amusement parks totaled 9.29 million, up 17%, compared with the 8.4 million initially expected. The increased number of visitors to Tokyo DisneySea since late September offset the small gate in the first half of the month caused by unfavorable weather conditions and terrorist attacks in the U.S. For the full year, the company is uncertain at this point whether it can meet its projected group operating profit of Y20 billion, down 10%, because the terrorist attacks and subsequent military action by the U.S. may affect the number of visitors from abroad, the sources said. <<<<<
Originally Posted By disneylandking I don't think that Jim's comment was limited to DCA. I enjoyed that comment for the reference to the attitude of people in general. Both parks, heck all parks. I am not posting in regards to his argument. I don’t praise or putdown DCA. I try to stay middle of the road. I was simply supporting the comment. I don't think it's wrong to complain about the comment. Heck 60% of the stuff posted on these boards are complaints. Go ahead and complain about the merit of the comment. Whether or not it's true. But this whole, "I don't think it should have been posted..." thing is a crack up. Some people love it when Jim cracks at TDA, or WDI, or Eisner, or Pressler. But God forbid he say something about you! That is what these columns are. Fact with some opinion used for spice. I fully support what he said. I think it's great for laughing place. I think some people love to criticize but hate to be on the recieving end. Freedom of speech in full effect, Go Jim!
Originally Posted By leemac Tangaroa, I echo the earlier comment, fix that broken record of yours and let others have a say. Jim's article was valid and never offensive. Maybe your sensibilities are a tad bit too high.
Originally Posted By disneylandking I don't think that Jim's comment was limited to DCA. I enjoyed that comment for the reference to the attitude of people in general. Both parks, heck all parks. I am not posting in regards to his argument. I don’t praise or putdown DCA. I try to stay middle of the road. I was simply supporting the comment. I don't think it's wrong to complain about the comment. Heck 60% of the stuff posted on these boards are complaints. Go ahead and complain about the merit of the comment. Whether or not it's true. But this whole, "I don't think it should have been posted..." thing is a crack up. Some people love it when Jim cracks at TDA, or WDI, or Eisner, or Pressler. But God forbid he say something about you! That is what these columns are. Fact with some opinion used for spice. I fully support what he said. I think it's great for laughing place. I think some people love to criticize but hate to be on the recieving end. Freedom of speech in full effect, Go Jim!
Originally Posted By MackAttack Okay Tangaroa, your source of information is newspaper articles. Wow, that is such a reliable source of information isn't it? But I won't even start on that debate as to how the information provided in the papers is more wrong than right. Your statement regarding Paradise Pier is still illogical and you didn't provide any solid reasoning as to your illogical statement. Because Paradise Pier has more rides? If it was as cheezy and low budget like you have claimed in the past, why don't these folks see right through it all and call Disney on how badly it was built? The feedback is not based on the count of rides, but on the overall perception of an area. For example Hollywood Pictures Backlot, though the most beautifully themed, doesn't have the really cool attractions. Therefore, that land gets the most negative remarks and is why Disney is trying to address those concerns with Who Wants to be a Millionaire and soon TOT. While Paradise Pier gets its inspiration from the 1920/30's era, the seaside amusement parks have been a part of the landscape of California and the US overall ever since the late 1800's and they CONTINUE to be today. You seem to suggest that somehow these parks disappeared after the 1930's. Hello, that is how Walt got his first inspiration to build Disneyland was from his frequent visits to the Pike in Long Beach. That would have been in the late 1940's and early 1950's. So, it doesn't leave out a BIG segment of society now, does it? I grew up on going to the Santa Cruz Beach and Boardwalk so I have a connection to Paradise Pier as well. Sorry that you missed out on that experience as a child, because going to a seaside amusement park as a child was really fun. As far as your other ridiculous comment that no one is going to DCA just clearly demonstrated your ignorance even further. For one thing, DCA will never pull in the numbers that Disneyland gets. That is no different than EPCOT, Disney/MGM Studios and Animal Kingdom when compared to the Magic Kingdom. Does that mean no one is going to any of those other 3 parks? NO! Think man. DCA will always average a certain percentage less than what Disneyland will get on a daily basis. But that does not mean by any standards that no one is going to DCA. That comment is just plain ludicrous to make and continue to make just because the very "reliable" newspapers say so. Usually their quotes are from Al Lutz regarding attendance and we all know just how well connected he is to the inner circles of Disney. (that was sarcasm by the way) DCA has met its projection goals for the fiscal year. Unfortunately, the revenue didn't meet the goals since many of those guests came in under some sort of a discount. I'm not going to even suggest that DCA isn't without any challenges with attendance during this time period or perhaps in the near future, but stop the rehetoric that DCA is empty and sucking wind with attendance. It isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Regardless, guests have been coming and enjoying the park. The word of mouth is very good amoung those guests. If you are suggesting that the average Disney guest isn't coming, then who were all those people crowding the park over the summer or just this past weekend? Annual Passholders? Now wouldn't that be ironic that the group that is most critical of the park are the same people who keep visiting the park? I will only say this, I have my inside connections and I'm very confident and comfortable knowing that I'm right on this issue and you are wrong. But you keep plugging away at your comments.
Originally Posted By disneylandking Ok, I have no Idea what happend there! I think I made a good point but not good enough to be repeated 3 times! I wish we could edit
Originally Posted By woody >>>DCA has met its projection goals for the fiscal year. Unfortunately, the revenue didn't meet the goals since many of those guests came in under some sort of a discount. I seems like you get what you paid for. And the park attracts its customers with discounts. I wonder why... like maybe the park isn't attractive enough to entice people to go without incentives?
Originally Posted By hopemax >If you are suggesting that the average Disney guest isn't coming, then who were all those people crowding the park over the summer Perhaps, they were people that visit Disney theme parks when given a significant discount or free tickets? Those people wouldn't normally fit under the "average guest" banner, would they? I don't think those are the guests that Disney is trying to pull in. I would think Disney is interested in getting guests that are satisfied with the park after paying full-price, like at Disneyland. And I'm talking comparing percentages here, not straight numbers, since I do agree that DCA will never reach the gate totals of DL. Since you said DCA has had "attendance challenges," what do the surveys say about the reasons why people aren't choosing DCA? And I'm looking for an answer inbetween an itemized list with all the details and the generic "economy", "price" answers that are to vague to get any real info.
Originally Posted By DisneyAce Oh man is it hot on this board! Tangaroa, not to jump on you case on 'Get on my pedestal' as you say about DCA supporters.... but, I say with pride 'I AM A DISNEY GEEK' though I don't expect a Indy every time out.... so, come on man, lighten up, Jim's comment I doubt was personnal and was mean't as nothing more to laugh off. I also almost fell out of my chair and could not stop laughing for a few minutes. People will hate that pier till the end off time probaly, but for me personally I love it and will continue to let guest relations know it in retalitation to those that, which they have every personal right, critize it. Leemac, right on.... you been talking to Jim lately with those comments, i almost had a laugh attack again. I think that the people have a right to express their views of the park and offer reasons for them. I know what I am about to say will be edited, but aslong as they are not as left field and without much merit, ala Al Lutz, then I look forward to the debate and views. Again, Tangaroa, I read some of your postand you seem to have some strong veiw points, so no offense man and just lighten up a little.
Originally Posted By TP2000 When I was a child in the 1970's we would drive down to the relatives in SoCal from Oregon every summer. We always stopped in Santa Cruz and went to the Boardwalk one afternoon. Back then it was dirty and crusty with some rusty rides and smelly carnies working them. But it was fun, in a bizarre kind of way, and we stopped and did it every summer. But we knew that it couldn't hold a candle to Disneyland, which was sort of the high point of the entire trip and in my young opinion the whole reason for going to California. Although I went to the Santa Cruz Boardwalk as a child, I have no desire to return to that dirty place. I can only imagine what it's like now, and what type of lovely Hosts and Hostesses work at the rides, games and food stands there today. I have also been to the Santa Monica Pier about three years ago. It was also dirty and run down, with the added element of scary gangbangers hanging around staring at the few tourists. Fun. After reading Jim Hill's article, I still think that Paradise Pier falls flat. It is not themed to the 1920's. It is a 21st century amusement zone with 1920's awnings, 1960's music, and 1990's carnival thrill rides. The materials used in construction barely try to look 1920's, and sometimes they don't even bother. Now I see they are installing modern sunshades in bright colors that look like they are borrowed from a 1980's kindergarten. The walls are all economical stucco instead of clapboard. The windows are all shiny aluminum instead of wood framed. The whole thing just looks completely modern, with only a thin veneer of obscure "Boardwalk" theming. Yes, they did add details like the faux wood supports for the steel Screamin' coaster. But they also ignored so many more places where details are sorely lacking. One look at the Screamin' queue and boarding area and you can see where Paradise Pier fell far short of any attempt at place-making. The Pier area is very pretty at night when viewed from across the lagoon. And the profesionally edited Disney postcards make the area look even more spectacular. But it still falls so far short of the immersive theming and elaborate storytelling and placemaking that Disney is capable of. The Boardwalk Resort at WDW has actual wood buildings, with all sorts of little period details. Paradise Pier has lots of stucco, painted metal bars, garish signs in modern font types and styles, and cement floors. I'm still not impressed. And word of mouth obviously hasn't helped attendance any either. People, most notably locals who expect Disneyland level entertainment, are staying away.
Originally Posted By tangaroa "Okay Tangaroa, your source of information is newspaper articles. Wow, that is such a reliable source of information isn't it? But I won't even start on that debate as to how the information provided in the papers is more wrong than right." Ok, but at least I can name sources. You can't. As far as I'm concerned you're just making these statements up as you go along, to justify your position of liking DCA. "Your statement regarding Paradise Pier is still illogical and you didn't provide any solid reasoning as to your illogical statement." And you haven't provided any reasoning other to say that some secretive guest survey says that Paradise Pier is the most popular area of the park. You also have no proof that it's true. "Because Paradise Pier has more rides? If it was as cheezy and low budget like you have claimed in the past, why don't these folks see right through it all and call Disney on how badly it was built? The feedback is not based on the count of rides, but on the overall perception of an area. For example Hollywood Pictures Backlot, though the most beautifully themed, doesn't have the really cool attractions. Therefore, that land gets the most negative remarks and is why Disney is trying to address those concerns with Who Wants to be a Millionaire and soon TOT." Ok so wait. You seemed to deny that the guest survey's had anythign to do with the rides (as I stated about Paradise Pier) and then went on to say that the reason Hollywood had such a low satisfaction rating was because of the *lack* of rides. That completely validates what I just said about Paradise Pier having more rides and therefore a higher satisfaction rating. And you didn't even address my point about Soarin' Over California? Did you really suggest that Paradise Pier overall was getting a better satisfaction rating than Soarin' Over California? "As far as your other ridiculous comment that no one is going to DCA just clearly demonstrated your ignorance even further." Based on what? I have at least three major newspapers and eye witnesses and the closers of rides/entertainment at DCA AND Disneyland to support this position. What do you have? "For one thing, DCA will never pull in the numbers that Disneyland gets." No one said that it should. Being half as big though, you would assume (and TDA did) that DCA would get half as many people as Disneyland. Didn't happen. "DCA will always average a certain percentage less than what Disneyland will get on a daily basis. But that does not mean by any standards that no one is going to DCA." Ok. I will accept that people ARE going to Disneyland, if you can create a convincing argument WHY discounting was needed if attendance wasn't an issue. "DCA has met its projection goals for the fiscal year. Unfortunately, the revenue didn't meet the goals since many of those guests came in under some sort of a discount." uh... nevermind about the convincing argument. Are you admitting that DCA could not have pulled in nearly as many people without the heavy discounting? "I'm not going to even suggest that DCA isn't without any challenges with attendance during this time period or perhaps in the near future, but stop the rehetoric that DCA is empty and sucking wind with attendance." It's not rhetoric! It's actual factual observations! With pictures even! "It isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be." Tell that to the people who are getting their hours cut/loosing their jobs. You're asking me to simply ignore the low crowds, empty shows, the vacant queue lines, the abandoned fastpass machines, and the bad word of mouth I hear everyday and simply 'trust' that everything is going ok because you say so. Now that's crazy. "If you are suggesting that the average Disney guest isn't coming, then who were all those people crowding the park over the summer or just this past weekend? Annual Passholders? Now wouldn't that be ironic that the group that is most critical of the park are the same people who keep visiting the park?" That would be ironic but why completely plausible. Disney has been heavily advertising the new Mansion on SoCal radio and I talked to someone who had heard about it from a friend, and drove down from San Francisco this weekend to see it. They were two park passholders, so why not assume that a good percentage of people coming to see the new Mansion are too and stopped in DCA for awhile. After all, Disney wouldn't have dropped the restrictions on CM's sign in privileges and reversed their position about the Annual Passes for DCA if they didn't think they would be coming at all. Every little bit helps. "I will only say this, I have my inside connections and I'm very confident and comfortable knowing that I'm right on this issue and you are wrong. But you keep plugging away at your comments." And I will say this. You haven't given any reputable proof of your position(s) and have actually contradicted what I have seen in the park myself. So I will go on doubting until I see some facts. The Truth is Out There! If you really like DCA that's great. I still drop into DCA from time to time to check things out and get a bite to eat. The food is far superior over at DCA than at Disneyland. Merchandise is better too. So I too have reasons for liking DCA. But I still think the park isn't doing as great as you think.
Originally Posted By tangaroa "Again, Tangaroa, I read some of your postand you seem to have some strong veiw points, so no offense man and just lighten up a little." DisneyAce- don't take anything I write seriously. Honestly. If I wasn't having fun here I wouldn't be posting! I may seem real angry, but I assure you I'm the peace loving tikigod that my name suggests!
Originally Posted By MackAttack Well, regarding your question about the guest surveys, I'm referring to the surveys that are taken by park guests when they are leaving DCA. So, your question of why some are choosing not to come to DCA doesn't apply there. But, to answer your question, there are a number of reasons why someone isn't coming to DCA, Disneyland, a baseball game or whatever. For DCA, the guests who have chosen not to come have ranged from the economy and prices (which cannot be lightly overlooked) to negative perceptions that have been formulated by negative reports that have been printed in the newspapers. These negative reports are usually quoting a "source" from various unofficial Disney connections like the writers at Mouseplanet (not just Al Lutz). Unfortunately, there is not an accurate balance offered in many of these reports so it give a strong appearance that DCA is awful. Some have read those articles and now think that DCA is not worth even checking out. It is unfortunate that they don't go and formulate their own opinion of the place rather than hearing from one-sided opinions in the newspapers. There hasn't been a comprehensive survey done yet on the outside as to what the true perception is by those individuals who have not yet come to DCA. I would like to ask you hopemax just want makes the definition of an average Disney guest? By your comments it appears that average Disney guests don't get into the parks by using discounts or complimentary tickets. And that logic comes from where? You see, the discount that was offered this past summer was primarily directed towards families in the local market. That wasn't a discount that was offered to anyone outside of Southern California. Every spring Disneyland offers a similar discount to locals too called the Resident Salute. Does that mean those folks are not the average Disney guests too? Of course not, they all could very well be an average Disney guest. The average Disney guest is someone who generally enjoys visiting a Disney park and has knowledge of the Disney brand. Not someone who is more of a thril park fan or may not like visiting theme parks period and is only going to a Disney park because of other circumstances. Many come to the parks on packages that are offered through the Walt Disney Travel Co. with tickets that are discounted or have other little "perks" thrown in to further entice their business. Does that mean they are not an average Disney guest? No. Also, an average Disney guest isn't someone that Disney has placed a per person dollar value on for spending. Disney looks at all 3 catergories (locals, domestic and international) with different per person averages for guest spending and directs their marketing effort to attract the type of guests that will spend the most money. Disney will always prefer domestic guests over any other catergory because they spend the most on average. Then it is the international crowd followed by the locals (which locals spend the least amount out of all catergories). During slow periods or bad economic times, Disney will offer discounts to the local market just to get bodies in the park to keep some revenue flowing in - even though the per person spending is at its lowest. There you go - a 101 lesson on guest spending patterns at Disney and who Disney targets the most. Thanks TP2000 for your opinion. But that is all it is, your opinion regarding Paradise Pier. I love the land. It does fulfill the better memories of visiting Santa Cruz. Sorry that you thought it was dirty and scumy (my word there), but I thought it was fairly clean and lots of fun. You should visit it today and see how much has changed and been improved. Regardless, to make such claims that people are staying away is again ignorant and wrong. As long as some of you keep making that claim, I will keep saying how ignorant and wrong it is. What a vicious cycle this can be.
Originally Posted By MackAttack I never stated that the surveys indicated a "lack" of attractions in Hollywood. It was that the perception of Hollywood is that it lacked really cool rides/attraction. Two different meanings, so stop reaching there. Your sources?!?! Newspapers? Great, my sources are college study papers and Cleo, the Tarot Card lady. Get real. My sources are internal and you know that no one can reveal internal sources. What sources do you have that DCA didn't pull in half of Disneyland's numbers? The newspapers again? Wow, I'm in awe of your sources. Your ranting and whining again shows your ignorance and that you grasp at the typical mantra that is so well displayed in the newspapers. Maybe you should sell them, you seem to be such a good advocate of their ability to be so accurate. Hours are being cut at Disneyland TOO. There are vacant queue lines at ALL theme parks TOO. Cast Member hours have been cut everywhere and not just in DCA. The job losses had nothing to do with DCA, but was a companywide initiative that was in the planning stages before DCA ever opened its doors. You are so ingorant of the facts sir. But, you can believe what you want and since you are convinced that DCA pretty much sucks (except the food and merchandise), then wallow in your negativity. You want facts, but will never accept them when they are presented, so why should anyone bother? DCA isn't doing as bad as you say, so now that we say the complete opposite I guess it is up to the readers who are reading this thread. By the way DisneyAce, I'm not angry either. I love debating and Tangaroa is fun to debate (even though he is clearly wrong).
Originally Posted By hopemax >I would like to ask you hopemax just want makes the definition of an average Disney guest? By your comments it appears that average Disney guests don't get into the parks by using discounts or complimentary tickets. And that logic comes from where? My definition of an "average Disney guest" does include a guest that would use discounts. However there are "typical" and "non-typical" discounts, no? The typical discounts can be identified by looking at the patterns over several years. These would include vacation packages, S. Ca discounts during off-season, flex passes etc. But DCA had to go above and beyond "typical" discounts, that's what is triggering the "maybe average guests don't like DCA" line of questioning. >There hasn't been a comprehensive survey done yet on the outside as to what the true perception is by those individuals who have not yet come to DCA. Well, why the heck not! That seems a heck of a lot more useful to solving DCA's perception problems than what things people who visit DCA like. And just in case you may think I may be an AP local and so my perception is skewed that way, my perceptions are from a non-AP Washington resident who has been to Disneyland 8 times over a 25 year period. I've gotten feedback from my husband's co-workers and other friends who have visited DCA and who don't have access to the LA press who quotes Al Lutz, nor read Disney discussion boards and with them Paradise Pier has a 100% non-approval rating. I have also talked with several people who live in my area who were planning on going to DCA but after checking the travel brochures, and the official Disneyland website decided that maybe they didn't need to return to Disneyland so soon even though they built that new park.
