Oct 10 Jim Hill Column

Originally Posted By DouglasDubh

"Can I ask what your definition of "perception of value" is? Mine goes something like "what you get" vs. "what you pay.""

That sounds about right.

"You stated that you do get more at DL and the "rack" price for the parks is the same."

But, as has been stated over and over, the price buys you one day. There's plenty in DCA to keep you busy for one day. Sure Disneyland has more stuff, but you can't do it all in one day.

Which is the better value, a CD with 45 minutes of songs for $8, or a 90 minute CD for $16? You can choose one or the other based on which one's music you like better, but to say you get more music for the dollar for one over the other isn't accurate.

Or an even better analogy: two buffet restaurants each offer 8 similar sized servings for $7.99. One has 12 things to choose from, the other 24, but you still only get to chose 8 things for your $7.99. Which one's better? Depends on which one's food you like the most, but you get just as full at either.

 

Originally Posted By DL-2000

::But far less than the "bulk" of the attractions. How do you get 9 attractions in PP? Screamin', Zephyr, Orange, Maliboomer, Mouse, Carousel, Sun Wheel, Jellyfish. That's only 8. If you count the boat and the games, you'd get more, but then you'd have more than 19 total attractions.::

If you don't count the boat or the games, you get 8 out of 18 attractions coming from Paradise Pier. If you count either the boat or the games but not both, you get 9 out of 19 attractions. If you count both, you get 10 out of 20 attractions.

Any way you slice it, Paradise Pier does contain the bulk of attractions at DCA. It's 1/3 of the park with almost half of the total attractions. I said "bulk", not majority.

::Anyone who says that Screamin' is just like any other coaster is fooling themselves.::

I totally agree. Screamin' isn't like the coasters in Disneyland at all. Maybe that's why it's not so great....

::The new resort is aimed at non-local guests to stay longer for their vacations. Many guests are staying 3 to 5 days at a time.::

What about those non-local guests who only visit the Disneyland Resort one day a year? Are they getting the shaft?

:isneyland is over-rated.::

Blasphemy!!!

::Everyone will have their preferences but I don't think that the average visitor will view the two theme parks as anything othere than what they are: two theme parks.::

Very few people that I know view Disneyland as "just another park" and those that do probably haven't visited it lately. Disneyland is in a class of it's own. I doubt anyone views DCA and Disneyland as "just a couple of theme parks". People know Disneyland. They know it's great. They know it's unparalleled.

::Certainly more people attend Disneyland than DCA every day, but is this because a perception of value or because Disneyland has a lot more things to do so people spend more time there?

"I love it when my point is further amplified by someone disagreeing with me."
It wasn't.::

Then explain what you mean by "Disneyland has a lot more things to do so people spend more time there". What you're saying is that more people go to Disneyland because it has more things to do at the same exact price. That's called "value".

::And it appears that attendence is off at Disneyland too.::

Not if you were at the park last Saturday. It was summer crowds all the way around.

::What you pay vs. what you get is up to how you spend your day.::

And, since there's a lot more to do at Disneyland, you have a lot more choice in how you spend your day, therefore, the value for you dollar is higher at Disneyland.

 

Originally Posted By tangaroa

"But, as has been stated over and over, the price buys you one day. There's plenty in DCA to keep you busy for one day. Sure Disneyland has more stuff, but you can't do it all in one day."

But the majority of people coming to Disneyland are only coming for *one* day. So the majority of people will always pick Disneyland over DCA.

I also think, opposed to the idea of extending their stay, the majority of hotel guests are simply taking time that would have gone to Disneyland to go to DCA. They are still spending three days at the resort, but now instead of spending those three at Disneyland, they simply take one to visit DCA. So DCA is now cannibalizing Disneyland's attendance.

I think it was a dumb idea to build a theme park targeted at 30% of your guests.

 

Originally Posted By DL-2000

::But, as has been stated over and over, the price buys you one day. There's plenty in DCA to keep you busy for one day. Sure Disneyland has more stuff, but you can't do it all in one day.::

True. Which is why Disneyland is better. You have a greater freedom to fill your day with more options.

::Which is the better value, a CD with 45 minutes of songs for $8, or a 90 minute CD for $16? You can choose one or the other based on which one's music you like better, but to say you get more music for the dollar for one over the other isn't accurate.::

The flaw in this analogy is that at DCA, you're getting the 45 min. CD for the same price as the, well, there's no such thing as a 90 min CD....we'll just say a 60 min CD. And then there's the question of quality. If you really think that DCA's "music" is better than Disneyland's, well, then maybe DCA is the park for you.

::Or an even better analogy: two buffet restaurants each offer 8 similar sized servings for $7.99. One has 12 things to choose from, the other 24, but you still only get to chose 8 things for your $7.99. Which one's better? Depends on which one's food you like the most, but you get just as full at either. ::

I made this analogy earlier, using the kid's buffet table at Sizzler versus the adult buffet tables. You're right, it does depend on what food you like the most. The chances of finding a food you really like are higher at the larger buffet table. I suppose if you really like what DCA has to offer, you should go there instead, but the casual visitor has a much higher probability of finding something they like at Disneyland than at DCA.

For example, let's say you hate half the stuff at Disneyland. You can still spend a whole day there doing things. But if you hate half the stuff at DCA, you can do it all in half a day. Not everyone is going to like everything that DCA and Disneyland have to offer.

 

Originally Posted By WrongWay

driftwood714:
>>There's no way you can finish everything in Disneyland in a day. But it is very possible to finish everything in Disney's California Adventure, granted you do EVERYTHING and not skip things. <<

And there is the flaw in your entire argument. NOT every attraction is designed to appeal to everyone.

Lots of people aren't going to do the coaster, mouse or the 'boomer. Others can't ride Stinger becuase they are too large. For many, a fatory exhibit has no interest at all.

Just about anyone can find enough to do at Disneyland to fill a day. Most people wont need 2-3 days to do the things that interest them. Most people won't want to do everything at DCA, and thus are getting less than a full day's activity for a full day's price.

Before I'd ever found this site, I spoke with a co-worker about her trip to DCA. She went in early March.

They arrived at opening, and by mid-afternoon had hit all the high points. She isn't a thrill rider. After the first factory tour, she wanted no part of the other two tours. She doesn't drink wine, and wanted no part of a $50 a plate dinner.

She loved soarin', bugs, animation, and a couple other things. However, this handfull of things was not nearly enough to fill up her day. She doesn't have this problem on a one day admission to Disneyland.

She wished she had a hopper, but since she was staying off-site, she didn't have one. She felt jipped.

 

Originally Posted By JohnS3

Hey Doobie - Are there a maximum number of posts that can fit into any one topic category? I mean, as we near post number 400, should we all be seeking shelter before this whole thread explodes?

 

Originally Posted By Futurist

I hope it keeps going.

I AIN'T THROUGH YET!

 

Originally Posted By hopemax

>Which is the better value, a CD with 45 minutes of songs for $8, or a 90 minute CD for $16? You can choose one or the other based on which one's music you like better, but to say you get more music for the dollar for one over the other isn't accurate.

That not is what I'm trying to say. If the 45 minute CD has 3 out of 10 songs that I want to hear, but the 90 minute CD has 10 songs out of 15 most of which I like better than the songs on the 45 minute. Why should *I* buy the 45 minute CD over the 90?

But when I say I don't want the 45 minute CD because it's only got 3 interesting songs should the response be "But the CD has 10 songs!" As true as that is, should that override the buyer's personal preferences?

And from the band's perspective, when they find out all of this, what should they do? Remain firm that they gave the customer the same good deal as the other guy (45 minutes for $8 vs. 90 min for $1). Or should they start thinking about writing different songs so the next 45 minute CD has the customer thinking, "Hey, this 45 minute CD has 8 out of 10 songs that I want!"

This is what I suspect is going on at DCA.

 

Originally Posted By hopemax

that's supposed to be 45 minutes for $8 vs. 90 min for $16...

 

Originally Posted By Dabob

<I also think, opposed to the idea of extending their stay, the majority of hotel guests are simply taking time that would have gone to Disneyland to go to DCA. >

Well, I can't speak for the majority of hotel guests, only for myself. But I know that we're visiting next month, and spending an extra day. I don't want to shorten my time at DL (that WOULD be heresy!), so we're not going to "cannibalize"; we're spending as much time in DL as we always would, then spending an extra day. Basically, doing just want Disney wanted--imagine that!

We're also staying at the GC, which I know is full-booked months in advance. I know because I booked it in April as a birthday gift; when I tried later to "shift" the days slightly I was told they were totally booked on the days I now wanted!

That's hundreds of (high-priced) hotel rooms that didn't exist before 2001, so that's contributing positively to their bottom line, at least.

 

Originally Posted By damon63

:isneyland is over-rated.::

>Blasphemy!!!<

I really hope that you were kidding with that response. Disneyland is not sacred.

::Everyone will have their preferences but I don't think that the average visitor will view the two theme parks as anything other than what they are: two theme parks.::

>Very few people that I know view Disneyland as "just another park" and those that do probably haven't visited it lately.<

I suggest you check that again, particularly if you are not a local. Yes, Disneyland is indeed a special place, better than most I'd say, but it could never hold up to intense kind of scrutiny that you put on DCA. Like DCA it isn't perfect, or even remotely close to being so.

>Disneyland is in a class of it's own.<

Perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, but not anymore. There are now 3 other "Disneylands" in the world with a fourth on the way, not to mention other Disney parks like EPCOT, Disney MGM, TDS, etc. Disneyland has lots of company. I'm not even taking into account the "Disneyfication" of Universal's parks or Las Vegas. Putting Disneyland on such a pedestal is really unfair and inappropriate.

>I doubt anyone views DCA and Disneyland as "just a couple of theme parks". People know Disneyland. They know it's great. They know it's unparalleled.<

Well what else can they view them as? That's what they are, theme parks. Unparalleled? I suggest you visit Disneyland Paris if haven't already done so. The park exceeds Disneyland in everyway. From the looks of it TDS is pretty amazing too.

At the end of the day, no matter how much you try to believe otherwise, ten hours at a Disney theme park is going to amount to nothing more than ten hours at a Disney theme park.

 

Originally Posted By WrongWay

"We're also staying at the GC, which I know is full-booked months in advance."

Some times may be fully booked, but I had no problem booking a theme park view room with only 2 week's notice, and even got the room for about a 30% discount by being military. ($170 a night for theme park view)

 

Originally Posted By JohnS3

Okay - this thread has unravelled into a discussion of room rates. Let's get out of here quick, before we hit 400!

 

Originally Posted By cstephens


JohnS3 wrote:
> Are there a maximum number of posts that can fit into any one topic category?

We know that a topic will accommodate at least 1000 posts as another topic reached that point. Other topics are in the 600 and 700 posts category, so 400 won't make anything go crazy.




/cs

 

Originally Posted By JohnS3

er...it *was* a joke, you know, right?

 

Originally Posted By hopemax

However I do wonder what's the record # of posts for a "loaded" topic...a lot of them end up getting locked about around 250...

 

Originally Posted By DL-2000

::I really hope that you were kidding with that response. Disneyland is not sacred.::

I'm only half kidding. Disneyland isn't sacred, but it's still a very special place and certainly in no respect "over-rated". I think most people underrate it, to be honest.

::I suggest you check that again, particularly if you are not a local. Yes, Disneyland is indeed a special place, better than most I'd say, but it could never hold up to intense kind of scrutiny that you put on DCA. Like DCA it isn't perfect, or even remotely close to being so.::

I am a local. Yes, some people treat it as simply a place to hang out on the weekends or whatever. I would suggest that those same people don't get the same feeling from spending the weekends at Knott's or DCA. Maybe some do. Too bad for them.

I know Disneyland's not perfect. But it sets a pretty dang high standard and I honestly can't think of any place on earth I'd rather be. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. DCA doesn't come close to the greatness of Disneyland.

:erhaps 15 or 20 years ago, but not anymore. There are now 3 other "Disneylands" in the world with a fourth on the way, not to mention other Disney parks like EPCOT, Disney MGM, TDS, etc. Disneyland has lots of company. I'm not even taking into account the "Disneyfication" of Universal's parks or Las Vegas.::

Disneyland, the original is still the best IMHO. I haven't been to TDL or DLP. Perhaps they would change my mind. I don't know.

:utting Disneyland on such a pedestal is really unfair and inappropriate.::

"Unfair"? To who? DCA? Awww...poor DCA. Can't live up to the expectations of Disneyland so we should just cut it a break, eh? "Inappropriate"? How?

::At the end of the day, no matter how much you try to believe otherwise, ten hours at a Disney theme park is going to amount to nothing more than ten hours at a Disney theme park.::

Depends on the park. Some Disney parks are better than others. That's a fact. If you think otherwise, it's obvious you are unable to appreciate the parks in any meaningful way.

 

Originally Posted By damon63

DL-2000, thanks for responding to my posts.

>I am a local. Yes, some people treat it as simply a place to hang out on the weekends or whatever. I would suggest that those same people don't get the same feeling from spending the weekends at Knott's or DCA. Maybe some do. Too bad for them.

I know Disneyland's not perfect. But it sets a pretty dang high standard and I honestly can't think of any place on earth I'd rather be.

There's no such thing as a Disneyland standard since all Disney theme parks are required to follow the same standard that has been established over the past 40+ years.

> DCA doesn't come close to the greatness of Disneyland.<

I have to agree with you there, however Disneyland isn't as great (at least not to me and many other people I talk to) as a lot of people make it out to be on these boards. The company line has exaggerated a lot of Disneyland's greatness and some of the more righteous Disney fans seem to have bought into that over the years, conveniently overlooking the fact that it too has had its share of problems. The truth is that no Disney theme park, including Disneyland, is as great as some people make Disneyland out to be. On the other hand, DCA isn't nearly as bad as a lot of people here believe either.

>Disneyland, the original is still the best IMHO. I haven't been to TDL or DLP. Perhaps they would change my mind. I don't know.<

I can't tell you what to do but if you love Disneyland that much I would encourage you to check out DLP. It is a beautifully designed, incredibly detailed Magic Kingdom Park that in no way diminishes what Walt did in Anaheim. It is far and away my favorite of the Disneyland based theme parks and I've seen them all.

:utting Disneyland on such a pedestal is really unfair and inappropriate.::

"Unfair"? To who? DCA? Awww...poor DCA. Can't live up to the expectations of Disneyland so we should just cut it a break, eh? "Inappropriate"? How?

It's unfair and inappropriate because…
1. You are raising Disneyland to a standard that it could never possibly live up to. There are people on these boards who refuse to admit that the "off the shelf" attractions at Disneyland are just as "off the shelf" as the ones at DCA.
2. DCA was never meant to be Disneyland in the first place. Sure, it's fun to compare and contrast but they really are apples and oranges. And there's really nothing wrong with that.
3. Both Disneyland and DCA are theme parks, pure and simple. Trying to make either of them any more than that is inappropriate. EPCOT, Animal Kingdom and Disney/MGM have, at one time or another, aspired to be more than just parks but as far as I know the Disneyland Resort parks have not. To suggest or expect that Disneyland or DCA are really something drastically more than what they are is inappropriate and unfair to both parks.

::At the end of the day, no matter how much you try to believe otherwise, ten hours at a Disney theme park is going to amount to nothing more than ten hours at a Disney theme park.::

>Depends on the park. Some Disney parks are better than others. That's a fact. If you think otherwise, it's obvious you are unable to appreciate the parks in any meaningful way.<

No, I appreciate each one for the things that they have to offer individually. I don't go into EPCOT expecting the same experience that I had the day before at the Magic Kingdom. That would be silly.

 

Originally Posted By disneywatcher

>> fabdisbabe: I'd kill for half of his sources, inside and outside of Disney. <<

This isn't directed at Jim Hill in particular, but I've often wondered how personal contacts and conversations will modify people's behavior or their attitudes. Anyone who's observed what's known as "office politics" should know what I'm referring to.

There's an aspect of human nature where anyone of us will have an easier or tougher time criticizing something or someone depending on whether we **like** or **don't like** the person who's involved, and whether we've had cordial or unpleasant conversations with that person.

I know if DisCo's Michael Eisner or DCA's Barry Braverman or Paradise Pier's Tim Delaney were personal friends, or if I had experienced very positive dealings with them and found their personalities to inspire sympathy or loyalty, there's no question I'd have a much harder time criticizing anything they were responsible for. The opposite would be true if I had a very negative experience with such people.

A variation of this is when a family member can criticize another member of the family (for example, siblings bad-mouthing siblings, or parents criticizing their children), while a third party -- an outsider -- will be given the evil eye if he or she says the exact same things about that person, even if accurate and true, to another member of that person's family.

I'll throw in the observation that some people are tougher critics about things produced by the DisCo. because of their awareness of the company's tradition of setting high standards, while others will be more easygoing about the DisCo. out of a sense of loyalty to the name brand or because they're so enthusiastic about the company, they think it deserves a lot of benefit of the doubt, or they're happier when they think it can do no wrong.

In general terms, devotees (of TV shows, movies, sports, celebrities, books, politics, music, etc., etc.) divide into two camps, where they're either harder or easier on that which they're so devoted to or interested in.

Using the analogy of families again, I've noticed some parents divide in a similar way as to how they deal with their kids. Some will browbeat their kids into getting straight A's at school, while ignoring the failings of their friend's children. Other parents will give a wide latitude to their own kids, rationalizing away their lousy behavior, while being indignant that their kids' friends may be setting a bad example or are a poor influence. Replace the words "parents" and "children" with "Disney fans," "DCA boosters" and "DCA critics," and it becomes easier to understand why almost everyone on this message board has a common interest in "Disney" but can be so far apart in the debate about DCA.

Simply put, if you take things here too personally, you'll have a hard time getting through life in general.

 

Originally Posted By MackAttack

<<Well, I can't speak for the majority of hotel guests, only for myself. But I know that we're visiting next month, and spending an extra day. I don't want to shorten my time at DL (that WOULD be heresy!), so we're not going to "cannibalize"; we're spending as much time in DL as we always would, then spending an extra day. Basically, doing just want Disney wanted--imagine that!>>

Actually Dabob, your situation is much closer to the reality than what our DCA-loving fans like crapshoot, woody and tangaroa would have you to believe. Not one of those three can present any credible proof to their claims. So, that is what they are claims that are void of any truth or factual evidence.

Hey Fab, I may not always agree with Jim's point of view, but I thought he did a really great job on this article. It was apparent he took the time to research his information and I thought he presented it in a mature and thought-provoking way. Two thumbs up from me.

So far, I haven't seen any argument here from the DCA bashing side that would suggest they have any evidence on their side of how Walt would have felt about DCA. Even though the man has been dead for over 30 years now, it is possible to review his writings, quotes and listen to "old-timers" that knew Walt personally to get an idea of what he thought about places like DCA. The evidence is pretty much in DCA's favor. To disagree with that fact or try and make all these empty claims that are based on "opinions" doesn't change the facts.

So, I've kind of given up on this long wind bag of "opinions" and feel comfortable and confident in knowing that where DCA is right now is not in a bad place. True, the park is rough around the edges, but the foundation it is starting from is pretty solid. The vast majority of guests would agree with that and that is all that matters to me. A fact that is backed up by genuine guest feedback in surveys (and not surveys that use leading questions, that would serve Disney no purpose by only hearing what they would want to hear).

Hey Fab, I don't have your email. Can you email me at PlayMST3Kforme@aol.com?

Thank you and goodnight!