Originally Posted By woody >>So far, I haven't seen any argument here from the DCA bashing side that would suggest they have any evidence on their side of how Walt would have felt about DCA. Hey MackAttack: You misrepresented my opinion. See post #238. >>So, I've kind of given up on this long wind bag of "opinions" and feel comfortable and confident in knowing that where DCA is right now is not in a bad place. I'm not trying to take away your enjoyment of the park. In fact, I highly recommend that everyone visit DCA even if you must extend your trip. I WENT TO DCA TWICE THIS YEAR!!!
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> There was absolutely no reason why the budget for DCA had to be as low as it was. << But after reading all the comments from those who truly and sincerely like DCA, even love DCA, and assuming their perceptions and biases are mirrored in the minds of DisCo. people like Michael Eisner, Barry Braverman and Paul Pressler, you really think DCA's "budget" is a key reason why the park didn't turn out better? I admit there are shortcomings traceable to not enough dollars, but I still think bad judgement and stunted creativity were bigger factors in why a better quality product did not come out of the budget that had set aside for the new park by the DisCo.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Not one of those three can present any credible proof to their claims. So, that is what they are claims that are void of any truth or factual evidence.>> Hey MackAttack, don't confuse the truth with the facts. 1. DCA attendance vs DL attendance. 2. Walt would or would not like Paradise Pier because..... As for the first, it is very obvious where the majority of the guests spend their time. As for the second. We base any hypothetical claims on evidence given by looking at historical records and personal accounts of many sources. While it is true that the final deed is what directs us to overwhelming conlusions, that is only part of the picture. No, we want more information than that, what were the thought processes, the evolutionary tale and how were the final conlusions decided upon. Certainly it is only conjucture to claim what a person would think when that person has been gone for such a long time. In the case of Walt Disney, he directed many projects that have his personal touch but were completed after his passing. As far as Disneyland planning goes, strong evidence does indicate that he wanted a novel park that would not be representative of the amusement parks of his day. For you to say that the majority of the evidence doesn't point in that direction is ludricious. And to further say: "that is what they are claims that are void of any truth or factual evidence.", well sufice it to say that is a bogus statement un-to itself. I don't really care in the long run or short run, for that matter, how you are trying to cover up and negate the history created by Walt Disney in regards to Disneyland. But it is an iconclastic approach that could only be befitting to Disney's California Adventure.
Originally Posted By JohnS2 Er...crapshoot, you're ruining my classic fairy tale ending to thei string of posts. Ahemmm - I'll try again. And they all lived happily ever after. The End.
Originally Posted By DisneyAce I know this is a SHAMELESS self plug... But in the spirit of this Great DCA debate..... Go check the Satrical 'Campaign DCA' thread! It's some new material I have worked up and while is may seem cornball and to some NOT FUNNY. I hope that in this great debate this could be like a breather for some of you. Lokk forward to the feedback! DisneyACE
Originally Posted By KanakiKid driftwood714 wrote: "The new resort is aimed at non-local guests to stay longer for their vacations." Oh so that's why DLR exceeded their original estimates this past summer. I've read some of the past messages regarding questions from fellow Disney fans from outside of California or even in the Bay Area that wondered why there wasn't much advertising for DCA compaired to advertising for WDW. If DLR was created for non-locals why didn't Disney spread the word? The truth of the matter is historically and for at least the near term DLR's major audience is the locals that make up most of DLR's revenues. Even if Disney's three hotels are filled to capacity that wouldn't make up for the absence of locals. On the otherhand WDW lives or dies on the non-locals, as demonstrated by the huge dip in vacationers flying after the WTC bombing. The way DCA and DLR has so far been designed and marketed shows the influence of the Disney suits from WDW. Big time mis-understanding of their audience in SoCal.
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By fabdisbabe I know if DisCo's Michael Eisner or DCA's Barry Braverman or Paradise Pier's Tim Delaney were personal friends, or if I had experienced very positive dealings with them and found their personalities to inspire sympathy or loyalty, there's no question I'd have a much harder time criticizing anything they were responsible for. >> and Jim wouldn't. He's a pro. Fab
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "It's called educated supposition. Based on how hard up Walt was for funds for his little park and his high standards, it is entirely plausable for this to be a possiblity." Not really. 'Grasping at straws' is the phrase that comes to mind. Me, I think that the night before Walt croaked he decided to put 3 Ferris wheels in Disneyland....tearing out Pirates, Matterhorn & the Castle to accommodate them. I think that's entirely plausible. "I think someone has stolen the identiy of the Fabulous Disney Babe that we used to know and love. This imposter appears to be another Mouse flunky" Anyone who likes DCA is a "Mouse flunky". Is that better or worse than "apologist"? "who's job is to cloud the minds of goodhearted Disney fans into accepting knock off of Six Flag parks. In exchange for rubbing shoulders with some heartless execs. and offers of extra work on Disney film imposters like this one tow the company line." You betrayed the holy crusade, Fab! "The Fab that I've read was funny, insightful, witty. This imposter is none of those things. I suspect it is really that @#$% Marcie from another site." Good thing the DCA bashers never resort to personal attacks. "The REAL Fab would have been able to explain why NO cheap ferris wheels actually showed up in Disneyland in the past 46 years, except" 'Except' "for that ill fated State Fair promotion which most fans hated. Dispite the vicious, ugly rumors that Uncle Walt wanted better quality attractions than cheap carny rides at the park that bears Walt's name," What are you talking about? "the REAL Fab would have been able to show which "land" Walt's ferris wheel would have been a perfect match, like the Mark Twain in Frontierland or Dumbo in F/L." Which land is the Ferris wheel in in DLP? "It seems that the reason Jim Hill wrote such a fawing (sorry Bambi) piece praising PP is because Disney has kidnapped our beloved Fab. Makes perfect, sense doesn't it?" How predictable. If a theme park makes you this angry, you may want to find another outlet for your energy.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "It's called educated supposition. Based on how hard up Walt was for funds for his little park and his high standards, it is entirely plausable for this to be a possiblity." Not really. 'Grasping at straws' is the phrase that comes to mind. Me, I think that the night before Walt croaked he decided to put 3 Ferris wheels in Disneyland....tearing out Pirates, Matterhorn & the Castle to accommodate them. I think that's entirely plausible. "I think someone has stolen the identiy of the Fabulous Disney Babe that we used to know and love. This imposter appears to be another Mouse flunky" Anyone who likes DCA is a "Mouse flunky". Is that better or worse than "apologist"? "who's job is to cloud the minds of goodhearted Disney fans into accepting knock off of Six Flag parks. In exchange for rubbing shoulders with some heartless execs. and offers of extra work on Disney film imposters like this one tow the company line." You betrayed the holy crusade, Fab! "The Fab that I've read was funny, insightful, witty. This imposter is none of those things. I suspect it is really that @#$% Marcie from another site." Good thing the DCA bashers never resort to personal attacks. "The REAL Fab would have been able to explain why NO cheap ferris wheels actually showed up in Disneyland in the past 46 years, except" 'Except' "for that ill fated State Fair promotion which most fans hated. Dispite the vicious, ugly rumors that Uncle Walt wanted better quality attractions than cheap carny rides at the park that bears Walt's name," What are you talking about? "the REAL Fab would have been able to show which "land" Walt's ferris wheel would have been a perfect match, like the Mark Twain in Frontierland or Dumbo in F/L." Which land is the Ferris wheel in in DLP? "It seems that the reason Jim Hill wrote such a fawing (sorry Bambi) piece praising PP is because Disney has kidnapped our beloved Fab. Makes perfect, sense doesn't it?" How predictable. If a theme park makes you this angry, you may want to find another outlet for your energy.
Originally Posted By tangaroa "Basically, doing just want Disney wanted--imagine that!" That's actually a good thing in this case dabob, Definately one part of the new resort that I want to see succeed beyond all expectations is the Grand Californian. "We're also staying at the GC, which I know is full-booked months in advance. I know because I booked it in April as a birthday gift; when I tried later to "shift" the days slightly I was told they were totally booked on the days I now wanted!" What's strange about that is, they are currently discounting A LOT for cast members and I guess the military too! I couldn't tell you what days were available or much about the prices. I just saw the GCH at 160 a night and the Pacific at 69! Maybe a cast member could enlighten us a little more about the discounting. "Actually Dabob, your situation is much closer to the reality than what our DCA-loving fans like crapshoot, woody and tangaroa would have you to believe. Not one of those three can present any credible proof to their claims. So, that is what they are claims that are void of any truth or factual evidence." And you still can't provide any credible proof that it's NOT true. It's a vicious cycle.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "And you still can't provide any credible proof that it's NOT true. It's a vicious cycle. " You're the ones making the claims. The onus is on you to support them.
Originally Posted By tangaroa "You're the ones making the claims. The onus is on you to support them." So I've heard. But we can't use personal observations, reports from websites, testimonials from eyewitnesses, AND professional media sources. As these are all considered biased or flawed. Can I ask you a question though? DAK canibalized WDW's other parks by quite a bit. I seem to recall 6%. Do you honestly think there has been *no* canibalization of Disneyland's attendance? Or are you just refuting that it's not a majority as I suggested?
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "So I've heard. But we can't use personal observations, reports from websites, testimonials from eyewitnesses, AND professional media sources. As these are all considered biased or flawed." Pretty much true. observations/testimonials are too anecdotal. Websites aren't much better. Even professional media sources can be pretty iffy. That's why it's so hard to make any definitive statements on much of this (outside of personal opinion). "Can I ask you a question though? DAK canibalized WDW's other parks by quite a bit. I seem to recall 6%. Do you honestly think there has been *no* canibalization of Disneyland's attendance? Or are you just refuting that it's not a majority as I suggested?" I have no idea if there's cannibalization or how much there is if there is. Disney doesn't share that information with me. I couldn't even make an educated guess. I doubt there are too many outside of the company that are "educated" enough to make a good guess.
Originally Posted By KanakiKid "for that ill fated State Fair promotion which most fans hated. Dispite the vicious, ugly rumors that Uncle Walt wanted better quality attractions than cheap carny rides at the park that bears Walt's name," Yookeroo:" What are you talking about?" Yookeroo:"I have no idea if there's cannibalization or how much there is if there is. Disney doesn't share that information with me. I couldn't even make an educated guess." Yookeroo: "I don't know why he didn't put in a Ferris wheel." Yookeroo:" Which land is the Ferris wheel in in DLP?" My, my what a weath of information you are. By the way, DLP doesn't have a ferris wheel, nor does TDL, WDW, or even DL.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "My, my what a weath of information you are." Better than misinformation. I do know enough not to make claims as to what Walt would've liked. "By the way, DLP doesn't have a ferris wheel," Are you sure? I'd hate to think that I have more information than you.
