Originally Posted By Dabob <Disneyland, the original is still the best IMHO. I haven't been to TDL or DLP. Perhaps they would change my mind. I don't know.> DL is still the best IMHO too. Haven't been to Tokyo, so I can't speak to that. But DLP, although really well designed and my 2nd-favorite Disney park, still doesn't have the depth and feel of DL, IMO. Of course, so much of this is subjective. By the way, Kanaki, DLP DOES in fact have a ferris wheel, themed to "The Old Mill" in its FaL. I found it charming, although a very standard ride. Damon63 is right; no theme park is perfect; not DL, not DLP (I could list what I see as its flaws, but why bother; I had a great time there and feel no need to put it down!), and I'm sure not even the already-cannonized-by-some TDS. I think you should just go the places you enjoy, and not worry about it if other people enjoy places you don't, or don't enjoy places you do. On the discounting for the GC: I've heard that all Disney resorts really took a blow after Sept. 11th. My experience was this--I booked in April (as a birthday present) for the week after Thanksgiving, then in June (?) tried to shift the dates slightly and was told the dates I now wanted were entirely booked, so I couldn't shift. That's why I commented on how well the GC seemed to be doing. I understand that after Sept. 11th, though, that many people cancelled travel plans, thus leading to unbooked rooms, and the subsequent discounting.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh "If you don't count the boat or the games, you get 8 out of 18 attractions coming from Paradise Pier. If you count either the boat or the games but not both, you get 9 out of 19 attractions. If you count both, you get 10 out of 20 attractions." "Screamin' isn't like the coasters in Disneyland at all." It isn't as well themed as DL's, but it beats any Six Flags coaster, IMO. "And, since there's a lot more to do at Disneyland, you have a lot more choice in how you spend your day, therefore, the value for you dollar is higher at Disneyland." If you look at it that way, then ANY park they built would have been inferior to Disneyland. That doesn't mean DCA doesn't have value. How can you count the boat and not the farm? How can you count the games and not the bread tour? I get 9 out of 21. Any way you count it, it's closer to 1/3 than 1/2. "Any way you slice it, Paradise Pier does contain the bulk of attractions at DCA. It's 1/3 of the park with almost half of the total attractions. I said "bulk", not majority." Go look up "bulk". In the context in which you used it, it means majority.
Originally Posted By cstephens KanakiKid wrote: > It seems that the reason Jim Hill wrote such a fawing (sorry Bambi) piece praising PP is because Disney has kidnapped our beloved Fab. Makes perfect, sense doesn't it? So now, people aren't just making adamant claims about knowing exactly what it is that a long-gone man would have thought or done, but people are now even claiming to know how a real-life person feels better than the person herself? If she doesn't have the same opinion as you, of course it must be a problem with her. Where do people come up with the nerve? /cs
Originally Posted By MackAttack Well folks, it has been fun here debating (at times even very heated) Jim Hill's October 10th article. I made a promise to someone that I would not visit other Disney sites and I have broken that promise. So, I need to now end my posts here on LP and restore my integrity with the person I made the promise too. Not that LP isn't a great site. In fact, this is a wonderful site with wonderful people, but I made a promise, broke it and now need to restore it again. Believe it or not, I have really enjoyed my debates and discussions with Tangaroa, Woody, Wrongway and Crapshoot. For the defenders of the truth - people like driftwood, Jim in Pasadena, cstephens and damon63 (and others that I forgot to mention) – keep up the faith and don’t let these folks who have opinion’s contrary to yours get you down. Rest assured that DCA isn’t going anywhere. It isn’t slowly crumbling into ruins. And, it isn’t perceived anywhere near the negative perceptions that have been displayed on the various discussion boards. Also know that Disney is taking the necessary steps (and spending respectable amounts of money) to add new attractions to the park over the next few years to guarantee long-term growth in attendance. How do I know what I know, because I am not just connected to “inside” sources, but also work on the inside with various executives, planners and leaders who have the direct insight as to what is actually taking place at the DLR and specifically DCA. Regardless, that doesn’t mean you should take my word over anyone else’s on the Internet, because truly none of us can back up our claims by revealing our sources so it is my word against someone else’s. That is why when I say that I feel comfortable and confident in knowing what are the facts separated from the claims and opinions that are made against DCA here on this thread, it is because I do KNOW what the reality of it all is regarding the park. Regardless, this is my very last post and I wish you all the best in this ongoing debate. I’m sure it will get rekindled again on the park’s 1-year anniversary in February. Since I won’t be revisiting the site as a poster again, feel free to take any of my comments to task and rip me apart like Kanakikid did by personally attacking a columnist on another site by strongly suggesting a derogatory name in connection to her own name in his #408 post. How shameful Kanakikid and your action speaks volumes of the type of person you really are. Oh well, enjoy the rest of the debate and I hope you all make it to #500 and beyond. I’m glad to have at least been the #300 and #400 poster on this endless thread. Good job Jim! I’m sure you never thought you would create such a lengthy debate. Bye everyone! ;-)
Originally Posted By cstephens MackAttack wrote: > For the defenders of the truth - people like driftwood, Jim in Pasadena, cstephens and damon63 (and others that I forgot to mention) – keep up the faith and don’t let these folks who have opinion’s contrary to yours get you down. I personally don't like that label either. I'm not a "defender" of anything. I state my opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone else to change their opinion, and it really doesn't matter to me what others think about DCA. I just object when people tell me what to think or why what I think is wrong. /cs
Originally Posted By woody Post #427, and I'm sorry some people won't see this to the end. To Post 500 or Bust.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> MackAttack: I made a promise to someone that I would not visit other Disney sites and I have broken that promise. << Your passionate defense of DCA made me think of the comments penned by Marcie at Mouseinfo.com. I've often wondered if you weren't Marcie visiting LP.com incognito. Regardless, I found myself nodding in agreement with a few of the comments made by Marcie towards the end of her newest column at Mouseinfo. On the other hand, a poster here at LP.com had many comments not long ago that were closer to my sentiments about the new park. But when he or she closed by describing DCA as the worst theme park ever, I'd have to say that was the essence of hyperbole -- however, if that person had qualified the characterization by saying DCA was the worst of the 9 **Disney** parks worldwide, well...
Originally Posted By KanakiKid Dabob wrote: "By the way, Kanaki, DLP DOES in fact have a ferris wheel, themed to "The Old Mill" in its FaL." I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<I made a promise to someone that I would not visit other Disney sites and I have broken that promise.>> You mean that there are other Disney sites? I had no idea that these boards created that much tension in a relationship that it was necessary to quit cold turkey like it was some sort of dangerous addiction or outlet for insider information. Go figure. For me, I like the challenge of debate. Gathering the evidence, assylimating it and presenting it is always an enjoyable challenge, especially when it entails the Walt Disney Company. Who's right or who's wrong matters less than reading the compelling evidence, historical data or honest opinions about a great subject. This is a great safety valve, especially in an everyday world. Now back to the boards.....
Originally Posted By DisneyAce Here is some full for the DCA fire. Now I resort to giving away my material....NOW I really like Disney and DCA. Enjoy (Not, bashing, defending, thoughtfully critizng, just poking fun at). "Disneys Califormia Adventure... a thrilling adventure about losing money, spin control and villianous bad word of mouth" "I knew we should have called it Disneys Ghost town, atleast that way we could explain the lack of people." "Who ever suggested a guest would want to see california in a day is fired". "Why didn't we have a attraction about Baywatch and exhibit on Plastic surgery, thats what most tourist think about are state". "Honey, it looks like a wolfs head, but it really is suppossed to be grizzly bear". "Forget 'Who wants to be a millionaire' this is california, we need to retheme it to 'Who wants to Marry a millionaire". "I knew we should have a created a Pirates of Silicon Valley boat ride." "When we add streetmosphere lets add wannabe producers, former millionaires and more boy band impersonaters." "Mommy, where are the other three golden hubcaps?" "Dad, didn't we go to a carnival last weekend?" "That Muhooland Maddness is nothing like the real Muholland drive...where you are stuck in traffic for hours and it is ten times scarier." "I could die happy now knowing how bread is made." "A fake-looking wooden rollercaoster. Now that is California!" "Just like california, stealing things from other states.... Like ITTBAB and Muppet 3-D." "The Hyperion is empty. I thought that was a Broadway/New York thing." "Don't you see. If we make the bay bigger, we won't have to build more rides and the area will still look big!" "If those nice folks that built TDS had more room to put in the carousel or another Jumpin Jellyfish, we would really have the kids angry." "I never knew california was so cheap and fake!" "I say we sue Knotts for puting is a space shot before we do. Now the public will think we really are copying the competition." "Sorry guys. I spent all the money on Animation, so bust open the catelogue, be got get some rides and quick." "How much did we spend on that tile mural????" "Can I please stop begging B-stars to appear in the Limo ride?" "Sorry, again guys. I got the budgets wrong. I gave the money for the amusement park to the grand hotel and the grand hotel money to the amusment park. You think anybody will notice?" "Whoopie called. She said we are even for those cheap picturs she did for us in the mid-90's and her her appearances in to of our rides. I REALLY had to beg her to do the movie one". "Orange stinger/Orange County, get it? Anybody? Hello?" "It's cheaper to fly and see the real thing now!". "What should we do with all the old plastic characters from the disney stores? Throw them in the limo ride!" "Next time disney calls, I don't want any alcohol, am I clear? Yes Mr. Mondavi." "Claifornia electric crisis/Electric Parade, get it? Anybody? Hello?" Thats all for now folks. Not bashing, just pokng fun at.
Originally Posted By driftwood714 I am saddened a little by MackAttack's departure. It was nice to have another Disney insider like Galaxie 500. I am curious as to who this person is on which other Disney site. Maybe MackAttack took some of the posters' aggressive debating personally? Who knows. Unfortunately, taking it personally is something that shouldn't be done. This is addressed to everyone, not just MackAttack. Take care, MackAttack, you will be missed. // driftwood //
Originally Posted By jonvn I have taken it personally, because it is meant that way. It's not "tongue in cheek," it is insulting. I was at both parks yesterday. You know what I saw? A bunch of people having a good time. DCA was filled with smiling folks having fun. Even in Paradise Pier. I saw Disneyland in its usual immaculate state. Not fallling apart, not filthy, just the way it's always been. Clean and nice and staffed by pleasant workers. I saw an incredible addition in Haunted Mansion Holiday. I saw a brave attempt in the new Lincoln show. I saw a lot of construction in DCA. But mostly, I saw people simply having fun and enjoying themselves. And what it comes down to is that the parks are there to have fun. The whole reason I go to Disney parks and like to read about Disney parks (and I have read a good 20 books on the subject of the parks and Disney in general) is because it is something I find enjoyment in. People go to the parks because they want to find enjoyment in it, as well. They do not go to find fault, they do not go to be miserable, they do not go to give cause to their anger. Not the emotionally healthy ones, at any rate. Posting on these boards has turned something that I once found a simple source of happiness and joy into a battlefield. It is senseless. I walked through DCA yesterday, enjoying myself, and my surroundings. Enjoying that other people around me were having fun as well. The fact that it is almost impossible to share that fun with others online is a real shame. But I've been going to the park since long before these boards have been around, and I'll go as long as I can, because it is simply a source of enjoyment. And when it no longer is a source of enjoyment, that's when I'll stop. Much like my posting here has pretty much stopped. I don't need individuals who think they know better to repeatedly tell me that the things I enjoy are so horribly lousy, nor do I need to be attacked, nor to see people with opinions similar to mine attacked as well. It simply does not stop, and it simply is not worth reading. eh...well, I'm going away again. Those of you who want to cheer, be my guest. I'm going to go to Disney parks, and I'm going to have a good time. You can try and ruin things for other people, and if that fufills some weird inner need, so be it. I'm just going to go have some fun.
Originally Posted By driftwood714 Jon, I hope you come back. I always find your posts to be very intersting and informative. If you are leaving, thanks for the lively discussions. While I don't recall myself being in a heated discussion with you, I've enjoyed reading your replies. Take care. // driftwood //
Originally Posted By DL-2000 ::There's no such thing as a Disneyland standard since all Disney theme parks are required to follow the same standard that has been established over the past 40+ years.:: Uh, right. And what park that opened, oh, say 40+ years ago began that standard? Disneyland perhaps? ::The truth is that no Disney theme park, including Disneyland, is as great as some people make Disneyland out to be. On the other hand, DCA isn't nearly as bad as a lot of people here believe either.:: That's your own opinion of course. People should be allowed to think whatever they want about an amusement park. Heck, they should be allowed to think that DCA rules and Disneyland sucks. Besides, this a Disney webpage. Why are wasting your time here if it's all "overblown"? If I wasn't such a rabid Disneyland fan, I would certainly be doing something much more productive. ::You are raising Disneyland to a standard that it could never possibly live up to.:: And what standard would that be? Just because it doesn't live up to it for you, doesn't mean it doesn't live up to it for me. This is all very subjective and you're treating it like incontrovertable truth. ::There are people on these boards who refuse to admit that the "off the shelf" attractions at Disneyland are just as "off the shelf" as the ones at DCA.:: Okay, I'm not one of them. Although I do think rides at DCA do a poorer job at hiding their "off-the-shelfness" than do Disneyland's. :CA was never meant to be Disneyland in the first place. Sure, it's fun to compare and contrast but they really are apples and oranges.:: Then why are they (A) built by the same company, (B) built right next to each other, and (C) cost the same price. They are both theme parks, just as you yourself said. I don't really see any difference besides certain thematic elements and the attraction mix. ::To suggest or expect that Disneyland or DCA are really something drastically more than what they are is inappropriate and unfair to both parks.:: I have never suggested that a theme park is more than a theme park, nor has anyone else. But there are various classes and levels within the "theme park" category and Disneyland rises far and beyond most "theme parks." Philosophical mumbo-jumbo does not change that. ::No, I appreciate each one for the things that they have to offer individually.:: Okay, I suppose I can accept that. But I have to wonder, what could DCA possibly offer above and beyond what Disneyland does? And that's the same question the average guest asks..... Guess what the answer is? ::Good thing the DCA bashers never resort to personal attacks.:: Yes, it's a good thing, since you seem to have no problem with it... ::Better than misinformation. I do know enough not to make claims as to what Walt would've liked.:: I'd rather here some speculative claims that can then be either proven or disproven than hearing "We can never know so why even try." That's what "discussion" is all about. Your constant refutations are getting tiring. ::It isn't as well themed as DL's, but it beats any Six Flags coaster, IMO.:: Agreed. Six Flags is not fun. ::If you look at it that way, then ANY park they built would have been inferior to Disneyland.:: Huh? If I look at it what way? Based on choice in attractions? Do you not think that it's possible to build another park with the size and scope of Disneyland? Try Florida.... ::That doesn't mean DCA doesn't have value.:: DCA does have value, just not as much as Disneyland, a fact that is not reflected in the ticket price. ::How can you count the boat and not the farm? How can you count the games and not the bread tour? I get 9 out of 21. Any way you count it, it's closer to 1/3 than 1/2.:: Fine, we won't count the boat. That's still 8 out of 18. And anyway you count it, Paradise Pier still has a disproportionate number of attractions in comparision to the rest of the park. ::Go look up "bulk". In the context in which you used it, it means majority.:: Actually, I already have. Here's a definition for you: bulk NOUN: 1. Size, mass, or volume, especially when very large. 2a. A distinct mass or portion of matter, especially a large one: the dark bulk of buildings against the sky. b. The body of a human, especially when large or muscular. 3. The major portion or greater part: I meant bulk in the sense of definition 2 a. and I suppose partially in the sense of 3. as far as the "major" part is concerned. At no time did I mean to imply that "bulk" meant "majority". And so it continues......
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> I am curious as to who this person is on which other Disney site. << In terms of sentiment, perceptions and point-of-view, MacAttack and the following columnist have a lot in common. To all those who thought LP's MacA. made good points, you'll certainly appreciate most of the observations made by this writer at Mouseinfo.: <a href="http://www.mouseinfo.com/columns/marcie/10162001/1016.html" target="_blank">http://www.mouseinfo.com/colum ns/marcie/10162001/1016.html</a>
Originally Posted By damon63 First let me start by saying that I really miss Jon’s balanced, articulate observations regarding Disney’s parks. It’s saddens me to see him go. In all honesty I can certainly understand your frustrations. ::There's no such thing as a Disneyland standard since all Disney theme parks are required to follow the same standard that has been established over the past 40+ years.:: >Uh, right. And what park that opened, oh, say 40+ years ago began that standard? Disneyland perhaps?< But surely you must understand what I was saying; that the standard is no longer exclusive to Disneyland. It’s a DISNEY standard. ::The truth is that no Disney theme park, including Disneyland, is as great as some people make Disneyland out to be. On the other hand, DCA isn't nearly as bad as a lot of people here believe either.:: >That's your own opinion of course. People should be allowed to think whatever they want about an amusement park. Heck, they should be allowed to think that DCA rules and Disneyland sucks. < I’m not telling you what to think. I’m simply saying that, based on the comparisons of DCA to Disneyland in this thread, it has become apparent to me that a lot of folks are holding Disneyland up to a completely different standard than DCA (spinners and corporate sponsored exhibits are okay at DL but not at DCA, for example). I’m questioning whether or not Disneyland deserves to be held in such regard >Besides, this a Disney webpage. Why are wasting your time here if it's all "overblown"? If I wasn't such a rabid Disneyland fan, I would certainly be doing something much more productive.< First of all I don’t consider taking part in an on line discussion about something I have an interest in a “waste of time”. Second, may I suggest that you avoid making personal attacks on my judgment. ::You are raising Disneyland to a standard that it could never possibly live up to.:: >And what standard would that be?< Well for starters you are stating that DCA is inferior to Disneyland, which might be true, however you and others elevate Disneyland to some sort of “holy grail” status that basically shuts out any discussion of DCA’s strengths. By doing this you only draw attention to the park’s shortcomings. ::There are people on these boards who refuse to admit that the "off the shelf" attractions at Disneyland are just as "off the shelf" as the ones at DCA.:: >Okay, I'm not one of them. Although I do think rides at DCA do a poorer job at hiding their "off-the-shelfness" than do Disneyland's.< Hiding their “off-the-shelfness”, as you put it, is all in the themeing, or story. DCA spinners are appropriately themed according to their location within the park. What more could you expect? :CA was never meant to be Disneyland in the first place. Sure, it's fun to compare and contrast but they really are apples and oranges.:: >Then why are they: (A) built by the same company< I don’t really understand your question. What does being built by the same company have to do with my original statement? Ø (B) built right next to each other< I’m assuming that you are saying that they should have built a larger, more elaborate park on the Disneyland scale. The truth is, as has been stated over and over, that that would have been cost prohibitive. Ø > and (C) cost the same price. < This is nothing new. Disney has always done this, why should DCA be any different? Obviously it’s been a problem for some locals and Disney has responded with discounts. ::No, I appreciate each one for the things that they have to offer individually.:: >Okay, I suppose I can accept that. But I have to wonder, what could DCA possibly offer above and beyond what Disneyland does? Actually, there are lots of things, and people have been attempting in vain to point them out from the very beginning. This is the kind of question that indicates that you’ve put Disneyland on such a high pedestal that you can’t see or admit that certain features of DCA are indeed better than Disneyland. >And that's the same question the average guest asks..... Guess what the answer is?< Please explain why that should matter to me or anyone else who enjoys other parks as much as they enjoy Disneyland.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Actually, there are lots of things, and people have been attempting in vain to point them out from the very beginning. This is the kind of question that indicates that you’ve put Disneyland on such a high pedestal that you can’t see or admit that certain features of DCA are indeed better than Disneyland.>> Disneyland has a few advantages over Disney's California Adventure. First, it is the theme park experience that the local SoCal population has rated above Knott's, Magic Mountain and Universal Studios forever. The Disney brand recognition came easy to DL and everyone embraces that. The legacy of Walt Disney, the man, is forever tied to DL. There is nothing that the current or future management team of the Walt Disney Company can do to reduce that preception. It doesn't matter if some of the rides are corny, tame, mild or boring to people, that level of intensity is what DL is all about. And that is one of the creature comforts of DL that is embraced by an overwhelming majority of the general public. The Disneyland experience makes sense to people, they know and understand what they are paying for. Each land is different enough from the others to make the day interesting. Each attraction fits perfectly into it's theme. The characters and the music used is timeless. I could go on, but what's the point? Disney's California Adventure absolutely lacks the proper foundation to give the visitors the Disney Theme Park experience that they want. And if nothing else, the one way to show that it is so, is to look at the ratio of guests between the two parks. Sure, quick fixes are the order of the day at DCA. Braverman installs signage that explains the experience the guests will encounter on the attractions. What is with that? Well, in general, the facades are supposed to do that through visual themeing. Is the Muppet show so embarassing that you have to trip over junk in order to find it off the main drag? What's with the golden Dreams theatre entrance, it's hidden as well. Bugs Life is a great entrance, but there is nothing leading guests to it. Grizzly Peak, why is it the first we see of it is the bear's backside? Blah, Blah Blah! The basic floor plan of DCA is a mess, continuity from one district, land or what ever they call it now, is weak. Then how well do the attractions within the districts fit into they're surroundings? I could go on, but what's the point? I don't wish the DCA project to fail in any way, shape or form. But, without the basic foundation that flows properly, the whole place is disjointed and incongruous. I am suprized by the many fans that can't see it or understand that basic but serios flaw within DCA park. Poor execution equals poor attendance.
