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Originally Posted By JohnS3 I remember asking the same question about surveys on another post. I asked why when I went to DL in August, my survey questions were about what hotel I was staying in and where I was from. I wondered why nobody asked me if I planned to visit DCA and if not, why not. Somebody here said "They do rotating surveys and people are asked that DCA question occasionaly." If so, I'd love to see what answers they're getting.
Originally Posted By DisneyAfternooner I just wanted to say that making CA Screamin' look like a wooden roller coaster is exactly what is charming about the roller coaster. To have a regular woodie would be plain and dull. Knott's has one. But to have a steel coaster disguised as a woodie, now that's clever. Who else would do that but Disney? And just wanted to say that for the longest time, I thought Tangoroa was an angry woman. This changes everything.
Originally Posted By MackAttack The summer discount for DCA was not necessarily due to people not going to DCA. In fact, the discount didn't go into effect until the end of June and the attendance patterns were already on a major upswing by the end of May/early June. The reason that the discount was instituted was to drive family business because the park was beginning to experience a negative perception that it wasn't suitable for small kids (which was true for kids under 40"). If you look at how the discount was directed, it was promoted primarily to families and not just anyone in So. Cal. (even though adults could get the discount without kdis attached). That aspect of the discount wasn't widely promoted. The promotion was always about kids getting in free with a paid adult admission of $33. Disney didn't want that perception to hang around DCA's neck and eventually kill the park's future success. After all Disney thrives on family visitation most and to have a park that wasn't friendly to kids would have been really bad for business. So, a discount aggressively aimed at the families (and primarily kids) was the answer. Then there were several key initiatives introduced in DCA just for kids during the summer to help overcome that growing perception. Did it work? Don't know yet, but that is also why the company is aggressively adding Bugs Town to help curb any further negative perception about the kid thing. Not only that, but every other theme park in So. Cal. was offering aggressive kid discounts too, so Disney responded to the offers with one of their own. If DCA was hurting so much for attendance, then Disney would have simply offered the regular Resident Salute during the summer and not offered a fee admission for kids too. The Resident Salute alone would have driven business and Disney would have kept the kids revenue at the gate. No, the driving point was to get kids in the gate. Plain and simple. I'm not going to deny the fact that the discount helped to drive higher attendance. It is really hard to say just how many more people came to the park with the discount versus if there wasn't one. By the way, this has not been the first time that Disney has instituted a summer time discount offer that was targeted to a particular audience. Disneyland has done it before, so to say that DCA was the first time ever for a summer discount would be inappropriate. I understand your point of view with regards to your friend. I have a number of friends both locally and out of the So. Cal. area that have shared their thoughts about the park with me and it has been more often than not positive. In fact, I find more people liking the park than not, so outside the usual cycnical and negative crowds on the various Internet sites and in the AP ranks, most people really like the new park. That is not my opinion, that is fact based on feedback from guests who have visited the park. Did you ask those who ended up choosing not to go to DLR why they made that decision? You didn't offer any reason why they decided to postpone their trips.
Originally Posted By cstephens tangaroa wrote: > If anything it just proves how unimaginative DCA really is. All of it's best ideas are borrowed from other failed projects. So what do you think about all the people who want to "fix" DCA by bringing in other rides from Florida or Tokyo? /cs
Originally Posted By dlport Top notch article Jim. I am also enjoying reading the folks at whom your article was directed scramble to defend their position. I absolutely believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion about DCA and Paradise Pier, but I must admit it is fun to see the righteous indignation coming out of some folks. Thanks for a fun and interesting article.
Originally Posted By coral_barks TP2000, are you sure they used real wood at the Boardwalk? I thought it (and the Beach and Yacht clubs, and all other 'wood' on property for that matter) was plastic faux-wood to resist Florida's wet weather. Here's my take: a recreation of something cheap and tacky comes out cheap and tacky. Garbage in, garbage out. It's all a matter of association, I guess. Carnival games and rides with exposed structure, steel or wooden, just speak cheap to me because that's what I see when I go to a cheap park. I'm sure the Imagineers did a great job on the theme, but I'm not convinced it was a theme worth doing. Maybe if I saw it, I would change my mind, but that's just how it sounds to me (on the other hand, I remember seeing that exact concept art for the Boardwalk and remember thinking how cool it would be; maybe it's another "sounds good on paper" situation).
Originally Posted By hopemax >Did you ask those who ended up choosing not to go to DLR why they made that decision? Of course. >You didn't offer any reason why they decided to postpone their trips. They postponed their trips because when push came to shove other things ranked higher on the "want to see and do" scale. It wasn't a monetary issue (other than they couldn't afford 2 vacations). And that's what I think one of DCA's major problems is. Not that what's there isn't fun or enjoyable, but what's there doesn't have enough umph, pizazz, wow factor or whatever you want to call it to get people beyond just saying "DCA looks like fun" and into the getting off the couch, packing up the car and going phase. My Dad says that DCA was the first theme park he was close enough too and had the financial resources to visit for opening day. But when it came right down to it, he spent the money on ebay instead. And the same goes for my husband and I, when it came right down to it we spent the money on other frivolous stuff than booking a trip to the new resort. And I wonder how aware Disney is that there are people like us out there? Disney fans who have the money and are looking to spend it but went elsewhere. That's why when people try to put the one size fits all answer "it's the economy" just bugs the heck out of me. I know that there are a portion of the people that were affected by the economy, but I know that there is another group of people for who money isn't an issue. I never see those people's concerns even acknowledged as existing. I don't think it's good for any business when its existing customers start going elsewhere, but it's not going to stop if no one even asks them why they're not coming. Now to switch gears...it's actually nice to hear someone say that there was a justified small kid-friendly perception problem. In the months before and right after DCA opened, whenever that issue was brought up on the various boards the response was that that was just grasping-at-straws-DCA-bashing.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder One thing that struck me was the tone of the article. I got the distinct impression it was aimed at Al Lutz. If true, how petty. If not, well, is perception reality? Living in SoCal and being a Disneyland passholder, I got to see DCA from the ground up. Before all the hype and bad press, nothing I saw made me want to go. A ferris wheel??? Since when did Walt Disney talk from the grave and reverse his long-standing policy against them? As for the California theme, I really think it was arrogant to think locals, who make up the bulk of the trade, would want to fork over $43.00 to see Disney's distorted version of the state, not to mention trying to entice tourists by renaming the entire complex a "Resort" and think the rest of the world has California envy. Bottom line, if I wanted to go to a standard amusement park, I would. I'd go to Knott's, Six Flags, etc. I go to Disney for that intangible experience only a Disneyland (still) can provide. No article about how pretty Paradise Pier is will change my mind. So bully for them, Jim. I'll take your word they spared no expense to make that portion of DCA gorgeously average. And just because I disagree with you doesn't make me wrong, all your "inside info" aside. Great for the people that like the place, but what those planner sources of yours had to do was make me, the SingleParkPassholder type happy, and the numbers bear it out overwhelmingly, they have not, not by a mile. Disney got better use out of the space when it was a parking lot. If DCA is ever going to succeed, some egos need to be swallowed, whole. Get rid of the $43.00 admission price, which amounts to a ridiculous cover charge to eat at a restaurant or shop (gee, any wonder why Puck and Mondavi had to bail?) and make the place a ticket book park, just like the old Disneyland. I'd be willing to bet they won't, because they'd find all to quickly just how many "attractions" are really all that popular there.
Originally Posted By ifzorro Great article Jim. It was about time that an artiocle like this was written. Jim lets also not forget the great detail in the lampost and boardwalk setting which are exact replicas to some of the piers of that same era. I have pictures of the old piers that lined california beaches and it is amazing to see the resemblence and detail in DCA. Also i need to check my archives but some of the original artwork from when Walts was alive included a carnival style and filled area for his parks. As a matter of fact many think Disney hated carnivals but in actuallity he only hated the stae and condition they were kept in. As for DCA The Pier is one of the best places to relax and look at in the evening it is just awesome
Originally Posted By driftwood714 An interesting fact is the boardwalk made in Paradise Pier is made of a special wood that comes from a forest in a South Amerian country. Not sure exactly which country and which kind of wood, but apparently it's very authentic and high quality (not to mention expensive). // driftwood //
Originally Posted By Darkbeer First off, about the newspaper article regarding the Toyko Disney Sea's and Oriental Land, this article was quoting "financial reports", and just as in the USA, the stock market is regulated, and these type of financial reports are required quarterly, and are audited by an outside independent auditor. So I have to beleive the Tokyo numbers. Disney talks about theme-parks in general (Toyko doesn't count since Disney does not own the parks, only receives a royality), so while you can get a general flavor, you cannot specifically target an individual park from the financial reports. TDS is doing better than expected, and DCA had to discount during the peak summer business. Even without having an Economics degree from Claremont McKenna, it is obvious which park is doing better.... To avoid copyright infringment, I need to use this book in brevity, but let me mention a couple of points from "The Unofficial Guide to Disneyland 2002" by Bob Sehlinger. They have been publishing this guide for MANY years, and have been performing their own surveys of park guests. The also sub-catagorize the surveys into six sub-sets related to age. I will pick three sentences, and hope you will go out and buy this book, I think it is a fair, unbiased look at the Disneyland Resort (and also Universal Studios). "From a competitive perspective, DCA is an underwhelming shot at Disney's three Southern California competitors."... "In short, there's not much originality in DCA, only Disney's now-redundant mantra that 'whatever they can do, we can do better'". So we have this third party, not paid by Disney, nor controlled by the "Anti-Disney" forces. (And give me a break, I love Disneyland, been a bit disappointed they have closed rides down and not replaced them, but still think DL is the best park on the west coast, and was one of those who was under-whelmed at DCA, hoping to see NEW and BETTER and didn't find it at DCA, so now I am "anti-Walt:, NO WAY!!! But I will still mention my disappointments, and my likes on the discussion boards, so we can discuss them...) They listed 7 rides at four stars or better at DCA (No five stars, and 8 rides with four stars or better (Including 2 five stars) at USH. And as my final point on this posts, I have found most people on this board, and others to be open minded, and have mentioned their likes and dislikes, but there are a few that either want to see DCA torn to the ground and the parking lot brought back (give me a break, NO WAY!!!!, let's make it better!), or the other half, and for this I will use my favorite sentence from the Unoffical guide, "Even if the park was called Disney's Slag Heap, the faithful would turn out en masse." DCA is having problems, the orignal attitude (in my opinion) hurt the park, with the "offical" Disney people saying how great it was, pricing it at the same price as DL, and then seeing how many people complained and asked to be allowed into DL instead. And this is at the beginning of the official opening of the park, where there was not that much word-of-mouth, just regular "joe's" buying tickets, and decided they were disappointed in what they got for the price. DCA is not a bad park, I enjoying going there for a few hours, but it has never WOW'ed me, I got excited with the WWTBAM-PI coming in, then got upset when DCA cut out the pre-show offered at WDW. Why does DCA think Californians want to stand in a queue (which, on most rides/attractions) you spend MORE time in than the ride, don't care to be entertained/amused??? I think I got a bit sidetracked, but the point is TDS is doing better than originally expected, even with the terrorist attack, and DCA has not been performing up to the original expectations....
Originally Posted By reddon "Even if the park was called Disney's Slag Heap, the faithful would turn out en mass" I think this is why some critics appears harsh and why someone will feel so strongly about DCA that they think "LIKING DCA IS DANGEROUS". Disney is still very much the 800 pound gorilla in the theme park business. I see it keeping the competitive advantages for years to come (reputation and owning Mickey and friends does help a lot). It needs its critics to keep it honest. I definitely don't agree with the "unrealistic Disney dweeb who insists that every single attraction that the Imagineers burp out must be up to "Indiana Jones Adventure" standards" sentence. I don't think anyone is asking Disney to make every rides to be as elaborate and expensive as Indiana Jones. What these "dweebs" are looking for is creativity and attention to details - the Disney touch. I am just a casual fan and not even qualified to be called a dweeb yet. But I'll say more power to the dweebs. Also "unrealistic Disney dweeb"? How realistic should a Disney dweeb be anyway?
Originally Posted By KanakiKid MacAttack wrote: "I will only say this, I have my inside connections and I'm very confident and comfortable knowing that I'm right on this issue and you are wrong." That statement is just as bad as his attacks that MP.com's info is biased. It's not cricket to state that you have info that you can't allow others to verify. The actual percentages of guest responses aren't even quoted. Journalists realize that all they have is their credibility. No reputable publication allows reports to be published unless the facts can be verified by more than one source or if the info comes from a quotible direct participant. I'm sure that newspapers and online news sites quote certain sources repeatedly because of the good track record that that source has in the past. I'm also sure that good reporters would try to verify the accuracy of their quoted source. Unfortunately, two so called DLR "insiders" who are prominent DCA cheerleaders would never rise to that level, because very little of what they post can be verified by sources or even by being in the Parks.
Originally Posted By TP2000 driftwood714, I remember hearing about the rare and expensive wood used in the boardwalk walkways also. It's from some genetically altered tree or something from Venezuela and it supposedly cost a fortune, if I remember right. WDI chose it because it had a certain patina and shade that they liked. Normally, I think little Disney details like that are wonderful. But when I see what they did, and didn't, do with the Screamin' queue, the Maliboomer theming, the Sun Wheel queue, etc. I would have rather that they got a bulk price on pressure treated wood from Ganahl Lumber on Ball Road and instead spent the extra money on queue theming. I could have done without an elegant patina to the walkway if instead Screamin' had more immersive storytelling than cement floors, beige stucco walls, and ceiling fans bought in bulk at Home Depot. MackAttack, are you saying that the majority of the bad reputation and bad word of mouth in SoCal surrounding DCA is attributable to one fansite webmaster and some outspoken Disneyland fans on Internet message boards? If you are, then "Wow". Imagine what that type of power could yield if Al Lutz and a few message board dwellers wanted to create a run on the American banking system, or try to resurrect the popularity of 1980's hard rock hair bands. Following the DCA reasoning, there is no group-think opinion that they can't create and get all of trend concious Southern California to follow. I hope they only use their power for good and not evil. Sorry for the sarcasm there MackAttack, but there has got to be a better reason than that. I suspect there are a number of reasons for the continuing attendance problems at DCA. Poor marketing. Unflattering ticket prices which present unavoidable and unflattering comparisons with Disneyland. Weak attraction roster, with only one real "Wow!" attraction with Soarin'. Un-Disney entertainment during the first few months. Lack of Disney Characters in a Disney Park. Expensive food. Fake state landmarks built in the same state where the real landmarks are found. No night entertainment until they brought the Electrical Parade back from the dead. Etc., etc., etc. Some of these issues have been adressed satisfactorily, some fixes were temporary (SoCal discounts and free kids admission), and some will take 3 years or more to fix. It will be fun to comment and watch those changes take place. I assume there will be a few more mistakes along the way, but hopefully the changes will generally be for the good of the Park and the Resort. If the DCA "Win" column doesn't get longer within a year or two, then it could be a very long decade before the Park becomes Cynthia Harriss approved "great".
Originally Posted By leemac Folks: Please lets stop comparing TDS and TDL to the US parks. TDL gets nearly 40% more visitors each year than any of the US parks (according to estimates, of course!!) but we know the guest spend is many many times higher. After being at TDS on Opening Day, I recognise how much money they spend inside the park....no packed lunches, everyone buys a popcorn tub, huge shopping bags everywhere...etc. It is no wonder OLC had so much money to burn on the new park. We, as visitors to the US parks do not spend nearly enough to create the revenue stream to justify a $2bn investment in a new park. DCA will get new attractions, shows, parades and such every year and will get some people visiting back. By the way, my suggestion is that some people need to take a CHILL PILL. The suggestion that Jim's article was a personal attack against anyone (even someone with such negative views as Messr Lutz and his miserable whiny cronies at Mouseplanet) should pull themselves away from their precious PC and the email updates of when new messages are posted, and realise that there is a world out there after all. The sun will rise and set as before. Let's just all be open to the opinions of everyone and just enjoy the lively debate that DCA creates! By the way, the Haunted Mansion Holiday rocks! I could do that ride every day. Nice to see that someone other than WDI can create these fucky new shows. Keep doing what you're doing, Steve Davison!
Originally Posted By Scutr >>And if you find it highly offensive, maybe it describes you, I don't know<< I am not a "dweeb" in any way, shape, or form. The point at which a columnist has to resort to petty insults and name-calling is the point at which that columnist begins to lose all credibility. YOU may have liked it, and YOU may have been able to post it on the discussion boards (and so might Jim) but it was totally inappropriate in his column. There's no reason at all why all media should lower itself to the "pro-wrestling" sensibilities and level of immaturity. (even though SOME people on these boards all-to-often want to do just that) It WAS an insult. It was NOT appropriate. I'm very surprised Jim would stoop to that level.
Originally Posted By Britain Ho-hum. All this talk about how a steel coaster disguised as a woodie is an old idea. Duh! Any self-respecting Disney fan already knows what Jim Hill pointed out in the article. Just because it's an old idea doesn't mean it's a good idea. And I like Screamin', don't get me wrong. I just find it interesting that Jim Hill "defends" Paradise Pier by looking at the few places that Disney did do more that what other parks would, and by turning a blind eye to the greatest atrocity of all: Mullholland Madness! Tell us Jim! Was a Mad Mouse in the old Long Beach DisneySeas project too? Ha!
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh "The reason that the discount was instituted was to drive family business because the park was beginning to experience a negative perception that it wasn't suitable for small kids (which was true for kids under 40")." I don't think it's a perception, I think it's pretty much true. And it's under 42". Although I've been a defender od DCA, if asked, I tell people if their kids are 42" and over it's worth it. If not, they may want to consider another day at DL or a day at KBF.
Originally Posted By MackAttack What cracks me up is how many of you have seem to forgotten what theming and storytelling is all about. Since Disney choose to build a theme park about California, it makes sense for the park to include a recreation of a seaside amusement park. Seaside amusement parks were so commonplace along the coast in this state. With that, many of those classic rides, like Mulholland Madness and Golden Zephyr, should be included as they were so prominent at these parks of the past. I cannot believe how much effort (including myself) that many of you have committed here just to either rip DCA apart or support it tooth and nail. The simple fact is this, the park is not going away, it is not being changed to any other theme, it is pulling in numbers (perhaps not-so-good at times and really good at other times), the park isn't going under by any measure of the rule, new attractions are being added over the next few years and the biggest fact of them all - DCA WILL BE HERE 10, 15, 20 OR MORE YEARS FROM NOW and NO ONE in Disney cares what you one-sided critics have to say because you are the minority voice and not the majority voice. So, either get over your anger or just stop going. It WASN'T built for YOU then! It was built for the majority of guests who do LIKE the park. Jim, I rarely agree with your comments, but you did a great job on this article and there is even more detailing and theming that you didn't mention that were included in Paradise Pier. It is just too bad that some are so blinded by their hatred for this park that they cannot appreciate the creativity, theming and detailing that went into this park and Paradise Pier specifically.
