Originally Posted By jlprjlpr Jim, I love your articles and mostly agree with you. But after having visited DCA during my visit to California during the Disneyana Convention, I have to say that there is no justification for how poor Paradise Pier and the whole of DCA is, no matter how well written your article is. I rode the Sun Wheel and the Golden Zephyr and the Mulholland Madness and all were lame, boring wastes of time. The rollercoaster was nice, but so what? There are tons of rollercoasters all over the place. Disney theme parks are supposed to be special and offer attractions you can't get anywhere else. There is not much of anything of any value attraction-wise in the whole park: a raft ride, some carny rides, 2 old 3D movies, a lame dark ride, and some more movies including Soarin' which will get old very quickly like most movie based attractions do. Who are you kidding Jim? This place really is that bad.
Originally Posted By leemac Unfortunately, the majority of the decisions taken at DCA were monetary. They needed a park from scratch that would fill a guest's day but on the other hand, would not cost the earth. The company got its hands badly burnt on the DLP fiasco. Too much money into a park that debuted at the height of recession. They had to dilute their shareholding to bring in fresh cash. The park survived, but it teetered on the edge for some time. There were many discussions within TWDC about insolvency and bankruptcy for the park. As an insolvency lawyer, I heard many a tale about the park. Thankfully, it held on by the skin of its teeth and gets to debut its own DCA next year (the studios will only have 9 attractions). The thing is, we will just be glad to have a second park and will wait for it to grow and mature, much like Disney MGM in Florida.
Originally Posted By WrongWay I think Jim again misses the point in his latest "middle ground" article. The point that people jumped on about DCA was the Pier. How is that going to be fixed without taking it down?
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<There are tons of rollercoasters all over the place. Disney theme parks are supposed to be special and offer attractions you can't get anywhere else. >> That is too bad Jlprjlpr that you didn't find anything original in DCA. I have never found in any other theme park (except the three shows at WDW) Soarin, GRR (to the extent of the theming, drop and spinning feature), Disney Animation, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, Muppets & Bugs 3D, the California Workplace attractions, Sun Wheel (with the enormous size of the structure and moving carriages - Coney Island is the only other place), Golden Dreams and even Screamin. You say that Screamin is a roller coaster and that you can get a roller coaster anywhere else. I guess that would hold true for Space Mountain, Big Thunder, Matterhorn and Gadgets Go-Coaster. In fact, if anything, all of those DL coasters are really tame compared to the "real" coasters out there. At least Screamin has a pretty good competitive edge to some of those outside coasters and is set apart from all of them with the LIM launch and onboard audio. As for Maliboomer, MM, Orange Stinger and Jumpin Jellyfish. So what they are similar to other amusement park rides. What sets them apart is how Disney themed them that no other park takes the extra effort to do. You can find in most other amusement parks, Dumbo, Astro Orbitor, Tea Cups, all the dark rides (just with different show elements and stories), steam trains, Autopia, King Arthur's Carrousel and Casey Jr. Train. All of these are typical amusement park rides that have been Disneyized at Disneyland. So, that arguement really doesn't hold any water. At least that is my opinion. Regardless, it is your opinion Jlprjlpr regarding DCA and that is too bad that it just didn't meet up to your expectations. I just don't agree that you or anyone can experience the same thing at any other amusement park that you can at DCA. That is simply untrue with the exception of the few crossover rides that DCA and DL have that are commonly found elsewhere too.
Originally Posted By clatertrap Here's my take on Avalon Cove. Disney asked him to leave so that they can serve dessert there during Lumen-Aria and charge and additional $30 for it. I ate there over a dozen times. There was nothing wrong with the service, and the food was way better than anything I've ever been served on Disney property.
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<I think Jim again misses the point in his latest "middle ground" article. The point that people jumped on about DCA was the Pier. How is that going to be fixed without taking it down?>> Why should they tear down Paradise Pier? Because a minority of people hate the land? You think because you and a few others on various Disney discussion boards express your hatred for this land that this somehow represents the majority opinion about the land? Sorry, but that just isn't the case. The small, but vocal crowd that doesn't like PP is in the minority (thankfully). Jim hit the nail right on the head with his latest article. I'm not sure how much more clearer he could have made his point.
Originally Posted By WrongWay WrongWay << I personally do like those kinds of rides, but I can find them at any cheap amusement in the country. >> Fab<< Really? Great! At which cheap amusement can I find a Golden Zephyr? >> Wow, I just knew someone would bring that up. Yes, Zephyr is unique. There are rocket rides and there are swing rides, but no other rocket swing rides. Might there be a reason these things went extinct 50 years ago? Maybe becuase they weren't that much fun? << California Screamin'? >> I've been on many launched coasters (from Texas to Ohio, Orlando to Virginia, and even at Knotts 20 years ago). I've been on even more steel coasters and even coasters that look like woodies (of course, all of those were woodies). Screamin's claim to fame is that it is a steel coaster that looks like a woodie? I'm underimpressed. << The Sun Wheel? >> I am looking forward to trying the swinging cars. NO, I've not been to DCA, but I get on the plan 7 days from today. << I know I can find a Dumbo-type ride anywhere; how about Maliboomer? >> Dumbo is themed to a fantasy. It transports you to far off times or places, not to a Six Flags park. Maliboomer is a standard shoot and drop tower. Those are all over the place. I don't get why you'd even list it as something that can't be found everywhere. <<I must be attending the wrong cheap amusements.Fab>> Hmmmm, I've been on many swings, towers, amusement park themed coasters, Ferris Wheels, Carousels, and wild mouse coasters all over the country. Maybe you need to swing through Texas, up through the Midwest, through Ohio, into New England, then down to Virginia. You are sure to find dozens of parks with all of these types of rides. None exactly the same as Paradise Pier rides, but a lot closer than anything will be to pirates, mansion, or Disneyland's mountains.
Originally Posted By tooncity People, People........it's just a theme park! Don't like it, don't go. Disneyland proper is a place that IS a National Historical Landmark and deserves attention on how it's be maintained. But DCA dosen't have that same historical standing. It's just a business venture like most other business ventures that has not caught the publics attention. So stop whining about it, just don't go to it. Vote with your wallets. Now let me quote Bill Shanter on SNL "GET A LIFE, will you people"
Originally Posted By WrongWay WrongWay:<<I think Jim again misses the point in his latest "middle ground" article. The point that people jumped on about DCA was the Pier. How is that going to be fixed without taking it down?>> MackAttack:<<Why should they tear down Paradise Pier? Because a minority of people hate the land? You think because you and a few others on various Disney discussion boards express your hatred for this land that this somehow represents the majority opinion about the land?>> MackAttack, Again, in your rush to anger and to be dismissive of other people's point of view, you miss the point. Listen to me for a second, please. Jim wrote this article, supposidly to calm the flash of debate. My point was that the debate was caused by his comments about Paradise Pier, and he doesn't even address Paradise Pier in this latest article. Again, it would be like people pointing out problems with CA Adventure, and he tries to calm the debate by talking about Disneyland. He didn't address the point of contention, that being the Pier. Do you get what I'm trying to say? People are talking about Apples, and he talks about Oranges. Also, I wasn't suggesting tearing down the Pier. Jim's point was that Disney will fix CA Adventure. Again, what is disliked most by the people that he is trying to calm is the pier. He talks about how the park will be fixed, but doesn't address how the pier could be "fixed". I was postulating that the only way to fix (as Jim says Disney will fix CA Adventure) would be to take out the area, and replace it with another themed land. It is the concept of theming a land to look like an amusement park that I personally dislike.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher "The majority of the decisions taken at DCA were monetary"?? Please read the passionate postings of MackAttack, or the enthusiasm expressed for DCA by others. There's no reason to think DisCo. bigwigs don't agree with such sentiments or perceptions (who knows, some of the anonymous postings here at LP.com, particularly those that express great happiness with DCA, could even be from very **influential** people within the DisCo. Not likely, but I have read that Michael Eisner himself loves surfing the Internet). Such examples of personal preferences and taste -- if they, in fact, are applicable to those at Disney who had the most impact on DCA -- run circles around the importance of dollars.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Really? Great! At which cheap amusement can I find a Golden Zephyr? California Screamin'? The Sun Wheel? I know I can find a Dumbo-type ride anywhere; how about Maliboomer?>> Maybe their facades are different but the kenetics are the same. This is why I see all these arguements going no where. It is the responsibility of the Walt Disney Company to create themed environments that are enjoyed by the largest cross-section of the population. So far DCA doesn't seem to meet that criteria for whatever reason. Why was DCA's first summer reported to be so lackluster? The current crisis aside, because all aspects of the themed entertainment industry were basicly hit equally. The basic question to ask is what aspect, in particular, resulted in poor attendance figures and how can it be corrected? 1. Park concept. Who was it marketed to? How was the local population figured in. What story was trying to be told through the theme concept? How does that relate to people's preceptions of a Disney Themepark? Does the fact that it wasn't to be anything like Disneyland a factor in the minds of the general public? 2. Park development. How is the physical layout conducive to telling a story or how is the sense of discovery going to play out? Was the elimination of the surrounding berm considered for the guests experiences whether real or subliminal? Box architecture instead of hiding the show buildings underground or behind a berm, more costly to do but how about future dividends including a better use of space? 3. Themed areas. Is the theming chosen something that the GP can embrace? How were these derived? Regarding the themes, how does the fact that the real models are anywhere from an hour to less than half a day's drive from Anaheim impact the GP's preception? 4. Rides and Shows. This is the main reason the GP comes to a theme park. How well do these compliment the theme? Will the GP compare these experiences to Disneyland? Will that have an impact? Attractions that were lifted, does that have an impact? The use of carnival themed rides instead of Disney themed rides/attractions, is that a factor? Are there too many shows and not enough rides? 5. Shops and restaurants. How is the price point or precieved value for the GP? Is the quality more important than the price or visa versa? There are so many differeny factors in understanding why DCA has had the problems of lower than expected attendance figures. A lack of understanding and knowledge of the local demographics would seem to be the biggest failure. And whatever Disney is doing or planning for DCA will most likely address those types of issues. If that means removal of some things to be replaced with a hopefully better product, then that is what they will do and are doing. DCA will take years of adjustments and fine tuning. It will be a better park ten years from now and may not look much like it did when it opened. Personally, that is the ride that I will enjoy the most.
Originally Posted By tangaroa Just for the record... im not bowing out of this debate yet. Just... busy. I think something that needs to be considered, when people say that the rides in Paradise Pier can be found anywhere, they aren't referring to the specific attractions themselves, but the experiences. How many rides out there pick you up, spin you around for 90 seconds, and then drop you back down? A lot. The modes and methods may be different, but it's the same basic experience. Personally I don't like being spun around too much. Same goes with the Maliboomer. Although it's technically unique (only one in Anaheim!), the experience of getting shot up (or down, it's all reletive) is not. People keep telling me Supreme Scream is better, but I'm too chicken to find out. The 3D movies in the park are different, but the experience of sitting down and watching them is not. Mulholland Madness is an exact copy of an off the shelf ride found in many many amusement parks. Screamin' I will conceed is an exception. The soundtrack on this coaster makes it unique and special to DCA. Unfortunately the soundtrack works less than 50% of the time. Maybe not every ride in a park needs to be an Indy or Splash, but what ratio should there be? 1 in 5? 1 in 10? 1 in 20? And depending on who you ask, DCA doesn't even have one. Every park should have at least one.
Originally Posted By pheneix On a completely unrelated note, I have to say that I found Jim's column very eerie to say the least. The entire column (as well as the last one) had that "written under the gun" feeling, or felt like it had been written by someone else entirely. It just didn't seem right. And regarding MackAttack, I can only say that your only excuse to justify your arguments is very similar to one that another so called "insider" is using at another site. "Because I said so" is not a good argument anymore. Like this other "insider", there is so much information that contradicts what you are trying to say that your arguments are, well... I'm sorry, I'm going to have to call this like I see it. >>>At which cheap amusement can I find a Golden Zephyr? California Screamin'? The Sun Wheel? I know I can find a Dumbo-type ride anywhere; how about Maliboomer?<<< Screamin' is a standard coaster with an overlay and a launch (which isn't even as intense [and probably the same can be said for excitement, I wouldn't know, all I have seen is a video] as a launch found at MGM Studios or Six Flags). Sun Wheel, while rare for it's type, is still nothing new, and has been done before. Zepher is unique, I'll give you that. Unfortunately, the general consensus is that it is not worth it's weight in whale dung. Mailboomer is as generic a space shot as you can find (which you can only dress up one to a point anyway), and does not even have a decent story (like Dr. Doom's Fear Fall) to tell. Perhaps the "cheap amusement park" line is overkill, but the fact remains that most these rides can be found at your local Six Flags, or at Cedar Point. Pheneix
Originally Posted By pheneix Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Screamin has a soundtrack. Too bad the music sounds like a psycho clown circus mix. Pheneix
Originally Posted By Doobie <<< On a completely unrelated note, I have to say that I found Jim's column very eerie to say the least. The entire column (as well as the last one) had that "written under the gun" feeling, or felt like it had been written by someone else entirely. It just didn't seem right. >>> I don't think Jim has changed his tune much on DCA. Prior to DCA's opening Jim was very critical. But once it opened and Jim saw it for himself, he gave the park mixed reviews. In fact he had his famous "eat crow" column where he said it wasn't as the disaster he was expecting. In later columns Jim talked about how the park wasn't great either. Since it's opened I've found Jim to be very middle of the road on DCA and that's pretty much what I'm getting out of these 3 columns - DCA ain't great. DCA ain't horrible. DCA is an decent park that will get better and better. From his writings and talking to Jim privately, that's the feeling I've gotten from him. Doobie.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Jon, I personally just think that it is time for everyone to move on from taking such polarized views of DCA. Some things are good and others are not as good. Those things that haven't worked are being upgraded or changed out. DCA will be fine tuned for the next several years. Disney knows where the weak spots are. And they are working very hard to correct those." I think this is absolutely correct. The extremist and polarized views that some individuals express without let up are simply uninteresting and unworthwhile. In the post I made, I certainly did not give a biased viewpoint, as I said the area in question had things I personally did not care for. This was, of course, followed by a couple of typically shrill and uninformative posts saying (again) how awful this theme park is. For those individuals, they can see nothing but their own complete and total negativity. It has gotten to the point of being meaningless drivel, containing no real thought or ideas. Just reflexive bashing, and it's simply not worth responding to. As you said, and what I also agree with, is that there are things that worked, those that didn't, and things will be worked out. Every park comes out the chute that way. They have spent enormous sums of money on this project, and they're likely not going to let it sit there and run aground. Again, as you said, it comes down to money. That's what rules, and that's what has always got to be taken into account on these issues. Folks can scream and holler all they want, but Disney is not going to listen to a pack of hysterics who don't know anything about their business. They will do what is in their best interest, and do what they can to produce a product that the public finds acceptable.
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<It is the responsibility of the Walt Disney Company to create themed environments that are enjoyed by the largest cross-section of the population. So far DCA doesn't seem to meet that criteria for whatever reason. Why was DCA's first summer reported to be so lackluster? The current crisis aside, because all aspects of the themed entertainment industry were basicly hit equally. The basic question to ask is what aspect, in particular, resulted in poor attendance figures and how can it be corrected?>> Your comments here are based on what information? You say that DCA doesn't appeal to the large cross-section of the population. Really? How do you know that as to be true? As for the summer's attendance, DCA did meet and beat its daily goals nearly 95% of the time. I wouldn't say that was lackluster. Please don't tell me that your sources were newspaper articles. See folks, Disney doesn't release attendance figures, so how in the heck do any of these outside "sources" know just what the attendance was? They DON'T (sorry, yelling again). Your claims are based on perception and gossip and are inappropriate to keep repeating as if it was fact. <<Dumbo is themed to a fantasy. It transports you to far off times or places, not to a Six Flags park.>> What? So Dumbo is different than the Stinger or Jumpin Jellyfish because it is themed to fantasy? Please, you can do better than that. Sorry, but Dumbo is still a basic amusement park ride with really nice themed decorations overdressed on the mechanical components. No different than any of the DCA rides. <<Hmmmm, I've been on many swings, towers, amusement park themed coasters, Ferris Wheels, Carousels, and wild mouse coasters all over the country. Maybe you need to swing through Texas, up through the Midwest, through Ohio, into New England, then down to Virginia. You are sure to find dozens of parks with all of these types of rides. None exactly the same as Paradise Pier rides, but a lot closer than anything will be to pirates, mansion, or Disneyland's mountains.>> It is always convienent to throw in POC or Haunted Mansion when trying to use DL as the true example of how DCA is a bad park due to the type of rides. So, you cannot experience similar rides like tea cups, Autopia, Dumbo, Astro Orbitor, Steam Trains, King Arthur's Carrousel, Casey Jr. Train, Gadget's Go-Coaster or any dark ride at any other amusement park? Hmmm, somehow I think you can and you are just somehow missing those in your discussion here. I'm mean I can go to Knott's and experience most ALL of those DL type rides over there for about half the price. And they are all themed too (just not as good as Disney's version). Also Wrongway, you still didn't make a clear point about Jim's article. Now perhaps I read a different article than you did, but the one I read Jim did address the time, effort and attention to detailing, theming and story that was taken by the Imagineers for Paradise Pier. He wasn't and no one other than a small group of you want to "fix" Paradise Pier into something else. Sorry Wrongway, but I didn't see your attempt to clarify your original post about Jim's article making things any clearer. I'm not going to try and convince you to like DCA. I really don't care if you or anyone else likes DCA or not. I know that a vast majority of those who visit DCA like the park (based on guest feedback, so there is some hard evidence). But I do enjoy discussing with people like you the type of claims and comments like the ones I quoted above and try to understand the logic behind such statements. What I normally find is that these statements are not based on simple opinion, but on a misguided understanding of what goes into making a Disney park. I know I'm going to get beat up on that last claim that I'm not being nice, but it is the truth (at least in my opinion as to how I've been seeing it with these continuing discussions).
Originally Posted By pheneix >>>Your comments here are based on what information? You say that DCA doesn't appeal to the large cross-section of the population. Really? How do you know that as to be true? As for the summer's attendance, DCA did meet and beat its daily goals nearly 95% of the time. I wouldn't say that was lackluster.<<< Very hypocritical aren't we? How can YOU confirm these numbers? Do you have sources (and please do not use Marcie... no further comment) that can be read by the rest of us (preferably not in a post here). Again, you are simply saying that DCA is doing fine because "I said so." Pheneix
Originally Posted By pheneix Err, that whole post I just made did not make any sense. Doobie, would you please delete it? >>>Your comments here are based on what information? You say that DCA doesn't appeal to the large cross-section of the population. Really? How do you know that as to be true? As for the summer's attendance, DCA did meet and beat its daily goals nearly 95% of the time. I wouldn't say that was lackluster.<<< Very hypocritical aren't we? Again, how can be these numbers be confirmed? Because you said so? Do you have sources (and please do not use the infamous insider from the other "Mouse" site... no further comment) that can be read by the rest of us (preferably not in a post here)? Again, about that last post, just discard it. I think I was falling asleep at the keyboard while writing it. Pheneix
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Your comments here are based on what information? You say that DCA doesn't appeal to the large cross-section of the population. Really? How do you know that as to be true?>> My comments are based on "insider" information that isn't too awfully hard to come by. And it isn't too hard to gauge attendance simply by just being there. Is FP full for Soarin' by 10:30 A.M or not is one indicator. Since that is the most popular attraction. <<As for the summer's attendance, DCA did meet and beat its daily goals nearly 95% of the time. I wouldn't say that was lackluster.>> Yes they met their daily "adjusted" goals which were greatly reduced after the season began. Basicly 3:1 is the ratio of guests to DL vs DCA. How else would that be explained other than the general population was not given the product that they want or the precieved value wasn't as good as DL's.
