Originally Posted By MackAttack Even though the question really was directed at you Pheneix, I'll direct this response to you. My sources are private (not unlike anyone else on these sites - except when someone wants to go out on a limb and say the newspaper). Does that mean my information is wrong? Well, to you and many others on this thread probably because of your predetermined bias against the park, but that doesn't change the fact of what I know. I'm not saying and have never said that DCA is doing "fine." But the park isn't doing as bad as it was claimed on a previous post and to make such statements was inappropriate. You see, I do know that a very small amount of people have access to the attendance numbers of any Disney park. So, I am fairly confident that many of these posters here, who coincidently are the DCA bashers, would not know just how the attendance has been or is now at DCA. Do you know Pheneix (and please do not use Al as your source... no further comment)?
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<I would like to mention to MackAttack that I have personally found it basically impossible to discuss or speak to these individuals as they quite often come across as brick walls unwilling to listen or discuss. I left a few weeks ago for a while after being called a corporate plant (amongst other things) because I dared not have the same opinion as them.>> Man, you were right with this statement. It is like talking to one long brick wall. Well, they are certainly entitled to live with their beliefs and misconceptions. As for me, there is no further need to try and help educate some of these folks. So I give in, DCA sucks and it should be burned to the ground. You win guys and gals. It is just a theme park folks (and a theme park that will surely long outlive all of us - including the negative bashers).
Originally Posted By JohnS3 Is there anyone else like me that prefers it to be bull-dozed rather than burned? (Sorry, Mack, couldn't resist.)
Originally Posted By a-mad "ohhhh boy!" That was my reaction to reading Jim's column... as I finished it up I thought to myself: 'I wonder if Doobie has started a thread on this... and if he has, I wouldn't be surprised if the responses were huge' Sure enough... once I got to the message boards - well, the rest speaks for itself.. One thing I can say is this - this topic definitely elicts passion. How do I feel? Mixed. Other than CA. Screamin' which is genuinely a fun, albeit sparsely themed coaster (for Disney), I don't really 'dig' the other rides. We actually had a genuine Golden Zephyr-esque rocket ride at my home park of Lagoon in Farmington, Utah... and they replaced it in '85 with a wave swinger (Orange Stinger... imagine that) On an aside, I personally think they chose the Golden Zephyr not for the uniqueness of the ride experience, or because they're extinct, but for the imposing figure it creates on the boardwalk and for the illuminations it would create at night. I should add that I do think Paradise Pier has some charm at night with everything lit up... I keep hearing the term 'vocal minority' to categorize those who 'have concerns' with Paradise Pier.... almost like this 'group' only exists on this board, or at mouseplanet.com. The connotation comes across that this is a radical, grass-roots group of DCA-haters that represent a small percentage of those who have actually attended the park. Well... while I wouldn't call it a majority, I do think that Disney patrons out there who have concerns or problems with PP are more significant than this group of guerillas... Example? My wives' extended family and I went to the DLR in August, where we all experienced DCA for the first time. This group totalled 20 people ranging in age from 4 months to 65 yrs, living in four different states... this is a group that has visited DL every year for the past 30 years... and has sporadically visited other Disney parks throughout the continental U.S. Reviews were mixed. Some liked DCA overall, (I did) but had certain reservations. FAR and AWAY the least-liked area of the park, however, was Paradise Pier. I say this only because I thought this group was a fair cross section of Disney enthusiasts, none from So. Cal, and none (save myself) doing any significant reading of fansites or discussion boards on the matter. So, for anyone to argue with this group of people that Disney spent millions of dollars to make this 'seaside amusement park' as spiffy as possible - so cut it a break... would fall on deaf ears.. my two cents...
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Months ago, Disney did publically admit that they were revising their initial attendance projections for DCA downwards, also, multiple Disney execs have stated that the DCA numbers were disappointing and that Disney was taking steps to correct the situation. Disney discounting the price to increase attendance, in the middle of the summer, something that the other theme parks haven't done in the past, but did make similar offers to match the discounted DCA prices. Disney cutting hours and staff at DCA also shows that the park is not meeting the expectations. (Disney plans staffing and hours based on it's expected attendance.) All these facts make me come to the conclusion that DCA's attendance is not what was expected. Also, the times I have been to the park, most times prior to DEP, the attendance was light, and the one time I went after labor day (prior to Sept 11th), it was also light. Plus other vistors have stated the same thing, (informal, unscientific poll, but with the facts mentioned before, makes me believe that attendance is not as good as expected. Surveys can and will be used to get the results that the planner of the survey wants to see. By the way you phrase the question, you can affect the answers. If the survey are requested by execs who want to match their personal objectives. Also, by eliminating certain groups, you can get different answers. Why does Disney usually not ask AP's questions, because they already have our money, because they want to know what a full-paying customer thinks, or to avoid opinions they think they might get from the excluded group??? Maybe some of each... most surveys are nice feedback, but so are guests comments, and most companies presume that for every complaint received, that other guests feel the same, but don't know how to complain, or that they feel it is not worth their time... I don't know of any company that totally relies on surveys, remember the New Coke fiasco, the surveys said it was a GREAT idea (what the execs were hoping for, did they ask the right question(s)???).
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Originally Posted By jonvn "Jon, I personally just think that it is time for everyone to move on from taking such polarized views of DCA. Some things are good and others are not as good. Those things that haven't worked are being upgraded or changed out. DCA will be fine tuned for the next several years. Disney knows where the weak spots are. And they are working very hard to correct those." I think this is absolutely correct. The extremist and polarized views that some individuals express without let up are simply uninteresting and unworthwhile. In the post I made, I certainly did not give a biased viewpoint, as I said the area in question had things I personally did not care for. This was, of course, followed by a couple of typically shrill and uninformative posts saying (again) how awful this theme park is. For those individuals, they can see nothing but their own complete and total negativity. It has gotten to the point of being meaningless drivel, containing no real thought or ideas. Just reflexive bashing, and it's simply not worth responding to. As you said, and what I also agree with, is that there are things that worked, those that didn't, and things will be worked out. Every park comes out the chute that way. They have spent enormous sums of money on this project, and they're likely not going to let it sit there and run aground. Again, as you said, it comes down to money. That's what rules, and that's what has always got to be taken into account on these issues. Folks can scream and holler all they want, but Disney is not going to listen to a pack of hysterics who don't know anything about their business. They will do what is in their best interest, and do what they can to produce a product that the public finds acceptable.
Originally Posted By tangaroa "Well, to you and many others on this thread probably because of your predetermined bias against the park, but that doesn't change the fact of what I know." That's not fair. You're suggesting that our biases toward the park are in fact creating the negative perceptions of attendance, and that's simply not true. Some of DCA's biggest supporters have admitted that attendance wasn't where it's suppose to be and save for the preview days, never HAS been. And I still find it hypocritical that you would expect us to give such credence to your statements about attendance, while you yourself are refuting the validity of the "inside sources" that are being continually quoted in newspapers and the mainstream media. The ironic thing is, both sources cannot be true. Either the inside sources that the newspapers have are telling the truth (a position backed up by the observations of many here). Or you are in fact true (something which I still personally don't see any proof of). For what it's worth, I do have a very modest amount of inside information coming my way. People come home from working in DCA and tell me about their day and what's going on. I trust them and what they say, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to.
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Originally Posted By Pooh2001 I love Screamin! I'm not to fond of anything else in the Pier but that is just me. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I don't want to voice my opinions on how awful it may or may not be. Why are so many people bent on trying to ruin other people's enjoyment? Not everyone is going to like and dislike the same things. The best way to show that you don't like something is not to go. I personally believe that no matter what Disney choose to build it would of been given some bad reviews. Its hard to build a park when your neighbor is Disneyland.
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<It is more than a vocal minority and hopefully soon it will be a majority so that the executives in the hallow halls of Disney will be forced to hear our demands.>> Okay, you believe what you want. The truth is, you are part of the minority and it isn't growing like you think. The proof will be in the pudding a few years from now.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Disagree with something, and automatically we want to burn DCA to the ground.... I have gone to DCA, and will continue to go to DCA, this does not mean that there are not problems with the park. I get frustrated when certain users post things like "DCA is better than any other park, bar none", and then some people point out that a lot of people think DCA is about equal of an experiance as other parks (except DL, which still is the best park on the West Coast), and then we are called DCA bashers, and how dare we like something that does not have the Disney's name on it. I love Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, and will pay an Inflated price for it, but Kraft Mayonnaise is OK, but I think Best Foods is a bit better, but I buy what's on sale, or the store brand. DCA is a nice park, but it didn't deliver the WOW factor I expected. And my expectations were based on Disney's past record, it's pre-opening marketing, and the admission price being equal to DL. It does not make me want to burn the park down, or get out the wrecking ball. I want to see Disney but the WOW into DCA, and yes, that might require that some rides by removed or changes (SSL and MM come to mind). Just because some of us have some disappointments in the park and/or its marketing does not make us DCA haters. I hate the Dodgers (My two favorite basebvall teams, the Padres and whoever is playing the Dodgers , I like DCA, I also like USH, Knott's, Sea World, the San Diego Zoo, the Wild Animal Park, and to a lesser degree SFMM. This is a discussion board, and we discuss things that we would like to see changed. I am not a Disney cheerleader, and feel that some users are "blinded" by the "cheerleading" mentality. When I see someone state something that I feel is misleading or incorrect, I bring it up to discuss it. I have been wrong in the past, and let me assure that I will be wrong again. I will also correct myself when my posts are misleading or incorrect.
Originally Posted By tangaroa "This is a discussion board, and we discuss things that we would like to see changed. I am not a Disney cheerleader, and feel that some users are "blinded" by the "cheerleading" mentality. When I see someone state something that I feel is misleading or incorrect, I bring it up to discuss it." Those fine Kraft products (found in supermarkets everywhere!) have obviously made this human superior to all of us! I bow to you. This conversation is getting scary. There's increasingly more talk about stating your opinion, than people actually STATING their opinions. Did anyone else think it's ironic that when the main stream press was praising DCA, Jim Hill was against it? And then when the press finally got a look and changed their tune, Jim did too? Jim certainly does know how to sell papers. I bow to you too master of the controversial! Disney's California Adventure 1996 - 2001 "Here Lie's DCA... Took the road less traveled, but got lost along the way"
Originally Posted By DisneyAce I still feel the same after all the words.... I am a amusement park enthusist, who has appluaded everything at Disney has done until the last several years (Light magic, TL98). I am still mixed at DCA. I have dozens of reasons to enjoy it (as mentioned on another thread) and some personal dissappointments about the park. Time will tell what path this park takes... to victory .... or to shambles. With no personal mean remarks... In this debate people let us rememeber one thing.... If we like the park or don't we share a common goal.... to have the second gate grow up to be like its older brother next store. If we didn't care so much.... why would we write. Now I must leave the battle field.
Originally Posted By jonvn And of course, the truth here is that if you aren't willing to totally bash the place, you're obviously a "cheerleader." Right... And of course, this sentiment is applauded by someone who decides to post a tombstone for the park. That's a completely balanced approach if there ever was one.
Originally Posted By MackAttack What shall we write on his tombstone when he pass on? Here lies a tiki god After a terible spin on King Triton's Carrousel, he didn't know which way was up except for DCA's attendance.
Originally Posted By MackAttack I'm just jokin with you tangaroa. I would never wish any accidents or death on anyone - certainly not my DCA-bashing friends.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer WAIT! By No means am I superior to ANYONE, I am one person, with my personal opinion. I do have a problem with others who posts (IMHO) read, I'm right, you're wrong, end of discussion. Heck, a lot of people like Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, and that is why Kraft can charge a premium price for it. But they do make store brands, and many people buy that instead. I am not here to say Kraft is the best macaroni in the world, and that anything Kraft does is the best in the world. My analogy is IMO Kraft Macaroni and Cheese is like DL, the best product of it's type, and DCA is like Kraft Mayonnaise, a good product, but comparable to other similar products.
Originally Posted By tangaroa I'm just kidding too. I thought posting a tombstone would be funny, but some people can take things way too seriously. AS FOR KRAFT PRODUCTS: Darkbeer, I wasn't being sarcastic! I will not tolerate any bashing of Kraft products on this board and will report any such incidents to the moderator. Kraft is a fine company with a fine line of foods (cheese and otherwise) and I just will never accept any position that bashes Kraft!
Originally Posted By woody Jim Hill opened a debate that should have been closed in September when the summer ended. In my opinion (like I must keeping reciting it), DCA hasn't meet expectations, but so what. Some people like DCA, some don't, and most people haven't visited it yet. You can't have a post mortem without mentioning the apparent disaster of Mondavi and Avalon Cove.
