Originally Posted By JeffG >> "So how about this, where are the Carney rides that Walt loved so much inside Disneyland? " << Well, there are the teacups, Dumbo, the astro-orbiter, King Arthur's Carousel, Autopia, the Matterhorn, and the various Fantasyland dark rides. The original versions of these all opened within Walt's lifetime and are variations on rides that were commonly found at other amusement parks at the time. >> "Designing Disney's Theme Parks, 1997 - page 33 Excerpts from the memo outlining the 16 acre park originally planned for Burbank. "And there will be no roller coasters or other rides in the cheap thrill category." " << Of course, Disneyland had one roller coaster (Matterhorn) by the time Walt passed away and another (Space Mountain) was already being designed. As I just mentioned in another thread a couple days ago, there is plenty of evidence out there to support either side of this argument. Yes, there are a few quotes that indicate that Walt was actively seeking to build a park that was a departure from what most other amusement parks at the time. It does appear that a conscious decision was made not to include some of the staples of other parks. On the other hand, there does not seem to be any compelling evidence that Walt had any kind of an active >dislike< for traditional amusement parks and amusement park rides. Indeed, Disneyland did include variations on some of the standard rides of the time. In addition, areas fairly similar to Paradise Pier showed up in concept art for several projects Walt worked on both before and after Disneyland, including his never-realized EPCOT concept. Realistically, I really don't think anyone is in a position to know what Walt would have thought of Paradise Pier or the rest of DCA. A great deal has changed in both the amusement park industry and the world in general since Walt's death. It is very presumptuous to think that we could have any idea what his views would be today. -Jeff
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<Designing Disney's Theme Parks, 1997 - page 33 Excerpts from the memo outlining the 16 acre park originally planned for Burbank. "And there will be no roller coasters or other rides in the cheap thrill category." page 74 - "Narrative was what separated Disneyland from all those other parks." But mostly I think we all can see that Disneyland is devoid of carney rides.>> Have you ever been to Disneyland Crapshoot? The drawings of his little park behind the studio included a train (which I know he loved, but it was a staple in other amusement parks too), a merry-go-round and boat rides which were all commonly found in amusement parks back then. As for Disneyland, let's look at the 1955 ride listing. Dumbo Carrousel Dark rides (all of them) tea cups Astro Jets Mark Twain Casey Jr. Train Canal Boat Ride (with no show elements) Midget Cars Steam Trains Jungle Cruise Main Street Vehicles Mission to the Moon Circa-Rama Movie Now, I maybe missing one or two since I don't have the official list in front of me, but that pretty much spells them all out. All of those rides were commonly found in other amusement parks back in 1955 with the slight exception of perhaps the Jungle Cruise, Mission to the Moon and Circa-Rama. While the Mark Twain represented a genuine steamboat, it is still just a boat ride that was also common at other parks. And I would give you the Main Street Vehicles too as not being common in other parks, but the only reason why they were included at Disneyland was due to the reinforcement in theme for Main Street. To say that Disneyland is devoid of "carny" rides is just plain ridiculous and turning a blind eye to the truth. They are just better "carny" rides themed by Disney. We should becareful not to elevate Disneyland to a level that is untouchable and sacred.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> They are just better "carny" rides themed by Disney. << The quality of themeing is important. One can say Pirates is a variation of the Tunnel of Love ride-throughs found at many seaside amusement parks decades ago. But what sets one apart from the other is the specialness of the design work and the sophistication of the presentation. However, I will say the original 1950s versions of some of the rides in Fantasyland (Dumbo, for example) were not as good as they could have been. But the era of Disneyland's birth was rather, uh, tacky-dowdy overall (look at the TV sets and kind of clothing used in the "I Love Lucy" show, almost a symbol of the 1950s). I suspect if Walt Disney had survived all these decades, his awareness of how more demanding the public has become since the 1950s and 1960s would be reflected in any new theme park he'd have a hand in designing.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> tangoroa VS Mack Attack. << I'd be interested in a roundtable discussion with the above posters and Galaxy500, Westsider and Mouseinfo's Marcie thrown in. But far more critical, I'd want Michael Eisner, Barry Braverman, etc., sitting behind the debaters applauding whenever a comment from the panel pleased them or booing whenever an observation annoyed them. Perhaps Ray Gomez and Cynthia Harris could be the moderators. The key question -- to me, at least -- remains: What do the bigwigs at the DisCo. really, truly think about things like DCA and "Disney" in general?
Originally Posted By crapshoot You stated my case better than I could myself, but you asked for a specific quote by Walt Disney that he didn't like carney rides and I provided that quote. Since you don't seem to know the difference between a carney ride versus a themed Disneyland attraction then I don't think that there is any reason to further this discussion any further. Oh and by the way: "Have you ever been to Disneyland Crapshoot?" This is the type of remark that is incredibly childish and isn't warranted in any discussion.
Originally Posted By MackAttack <<You stated my case better than I could myself, but you asked for a specific quote by Walt Disney that he didn't like carney rides and I provided that quote. Since you don't seem to know the difference between a carney ride versus a themed Disneyland attraction then I don't think that there is any reason to further this discussion any further.>> It is apparent to from your comments that I don't think you know what a carny ride is anyhow. A majority of the ones I listed for DL would be considered a carny ride. So how is it that you can twist my comments to your advantage? You are not making any sense in your arguement. The quote you provided did NOT state anything about him not liking carny rides. I think you are reaching quite a bit here.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh "You stated my case better than I could myself, but you asked for a specific quote by Walt Disney that he didn't like carney rides and I provided that quote." No, you didn't. Saying that there would be no roller coasters in Disneyland does not prove Walt didn't like carney rides. And I'm sure you'd argue that Walt would never allow a skyway in one of his parks, right? No theme, no narrative, common to cheap seaside amusement parks. Walt must have hated them. Sorry crapshoot, your dog don't hunt.
Originally Posted By DisneyAce As unofficial and self declared referee in this debate I hereby declare in the written duel between crapshoot and Macattack the winner.... Macattack, with crapshoot going down in the 168th. Who would have ever guess a simple commentary from a contriversal writer would lead to the biggest smok'in gun discussion board between the extreme wings of the DCA debate. But to throw some sense in.... Mac: Astro-jet didn't open till '56. Also, besides the things you mention that could be found at a local amusement park that disneyland had also: Rides on pack-mules. Stage coach rides (KBF not sure the year it opened though). Corporate exhibits (I know this is not amusment parks, but World Fairs, again proving that Walt didn't hate the fair going amusement park genre). I forgot which book I read that stated that one of Walts favorite moments was when the Matterhorn would come to a end and the guest would get splashed. It was several years before the first flume attraction and a stapple at amusment parks now (even today six flags and castle park, Knotts is themed though). Makes you wonder if Walt would have put one in Disneyland had he been given time to do it. I can't put words in a dead legends mouth, but while I think he may not have like SOME of the rides in PP, he would have loved the overall ambious and prettiness. It was a clean version of the place him and Roy probally went double dating in the 1920's. I'll never know. But the more petty comments I read, the more I am starting to move from the middle of the road to absolutely lov'in DCA, because I am starting to see my own personal problems with it as nothing then compared to how other extremeist see it. I am back on the battle field in defense of DCA, may I take whatever shots may come.
Originally Posted By disneylandking scutr, oh yeah. Well you should take a ladder and... Just kidding It's the name isn't it, the name makes me come across that way. It's been fun and I appreciate going back and forth with you. I figured I would ask Jim himself what he saw his column as. His response (which if you'd like I can email you portions: disneylandking@yahoo.com) was confirming a lot of what I thought. I understand your concern but I am not arguing whether or not he's right in his statement. I'm just arguing that he has the right to make the statement. It's been fun, but I think we should bow out here. This is a hostile environment anyway and there isn't any need to go back and forth when I think we've both clearly stated our points and both clearly disagree. Thanks!
Originally Posted By DCADefender The Defender predicts that within several months and many harsh words..... This board will have more responses than the Haunted Masion trivia thread. Now I must read and try to understand those who approve and those who oppose the park I defend as my name sake. Now it begins.
Originally Posted By YoHo Well, I don't know if anyone is listening anymore and I refuse to read 170 responses, so this might have been brought up, but has it occured to anyone that perhaps the reason DCA has done so poorly is demographics. Lets see the vast majority of Disneyland guests are locals. People from california. Even if it was done well, why would a local from the bay area care to see something themed as the bay area. Places like adventureland and frontierland WORK,because its a place you can't normally go to. its not local. If I'm a california native and I want to see the Bay area, I'll drive to San Francisco. Further, If I recall correctly, California only has one actual Seaside amusment park currently, up in Santa Cruz. Unlike the East Coast where they are all over the place. The boardwalk is simply not a part of california beach culture. It doesn't matter how well it was done. Nobody relates to it, and if they DO, they can just take a trip to Santa Cruz. AND, if I were an out of state Visitor, going to the effort of paying for the trip, Wouldn't I rather go to the actual sights instead of replicas? In my opinion, DCA fails, not because it was poorly executed (which some parts were), but because Anaheim California was a bad place for a park about California. Paradise Pier would have been cool as part of WDW's Board Walk. It would have made more sense and more people would have related to it. I'd like to see Jim respond to this as he hasn't commented on whether DCA's general theme was the right one for Anaheim.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "They built a new park, which, right or wrong, was the antithesis of any park that Walt Disney (yeah...remember him, the founder of the company and the man whose name is on the park?) ever wanted built. One of his sole reasons to build Disneyland was because he hated the whole boardwalk type of affair." Prove it.
Originally Posted By driftwood714 Don't forget Mission Beach in San Diego and Pacific Park in Santa Monica, to name a few more.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "I and thousands of others are misrepresenting what he said?" Yes. "My apologies then to Walt Disney for we would never want to do that." Good. "So how about this, where are the Carney rides that Walt loved so much inside Disneyland? " Are you serious? Dumbo Snow White Peter Pan Toad Alice in Wonderland Teacups etc.
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Originally Posted By tangaroa "Prove it." Go rent the film Pinocchio. It's a godo movie too, so if you haven't seen it yet, you should really like it. Ok all sarcasm aside... It's true that Walt built carny rides in Disneyland. He had two wonderful excuses at the time though. He had no money, and he had no time. The carny rides were the quickest, cheapest, and easist way for Walt to get a park up and running in the time allotted with the money he was getting from ABC. When the park finally started getting into the black in 1959, Walt invented something really wonderful.. the E Ticket. And never again was a carny ride built in Disneyland. It was all uphill from there. What would I have liked seen put in Paradise Pier instead? Well I personally would have liked more done to tell the story of California. I would have thrown out the concept of "hip and edgy" and "contemporary" and built something that wold have reflected the great stories coming from California. What abou the mexican influence? What about the gold rush? What about our seaports during WW2? It would have been nice to be able to sit down and watch Golden Dreams and then run out into the park and experience some of those adventures for myself. A spanish mission... some tall ships.. and a railroad plowing thru the Sierra Nevadas. Now that's a real California Adventure.
Originally Posted By hopemax How about everyone who thinks that Dumbo and the dark rides were just typical carny rides, and in no way revolutionary in 1955 write to the Arrow Development guys, and the Imagineers who worked on them and report back to us what they said. In the mean time "Rollercoasters, Flumes and Flying Saucers" is available on Amazon.
Originally Posted By hopemax P.S. I'm not sure making inflammatory comments about 1955 DL rides is the best way to get people to stop making inflammatory comments about 2001 DCA rides. If it is ignorant and too simplistic to call the Maliboomer an "off-the shelf carny ride" why is it okay to call Dumbo one? Or do some really believe that Dumbo is more like an off-the shelf carny ride than the Maliboomer?
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