Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I'm pleasantly surprised that the TDS addition will have a generic Scandinavian theme, with just a portion of it devoted to Frozen. That's more than can be said about the Norway pavilion at Epcot, despite a very different park mission.>> Probably not the section for this, but it came up here. Who says that? I know I am out of the loop. I have spent an incredibly small portion of my life obsessing about what Frozen will do to Norway at Epcot. Maybe 30 minutes at the outside. But my impression was that the basic Nordic theme of Norway would remain the same, with a Frozen themed ride replacing the aging Maelstrom and probably a meet in greet in connection with the existing character dining. Are there really firm plans to do much more than that or are they just widespread paranoid fantasies?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I'm excited by the possibilities of some family-friendly big-budget E-tickets. It's been a long time since a new one was introduced to any Disney park> I would count The Safari ride at AK as one.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Are there really firm plans to do much more than that or are they just widespread paranoid fantasies?> They are constructing a new building between Norway and Mexico which will hold more bathrooms and a meet and greet.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<They are constructing a new building between Norway and Mexico which will hold more bathrooms and a meet and greet.>> Thanks. Now I understand the overwhelming concern that World Showcase will never be the same. Face it folks... all they are doing is a Frozen OVERLAY on Maelstrom. Who really cares? I'm pretty sure that I am the only person in existence who has watched the concluding movie EVERY TIME I went on the ride. It just seemed the polite thing to do. But I'm also pretty darned sure no one will miss it. Including me.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I'm also pretty darned sure no one will miss it. Including me.> I still miss Season of the Vine and Golden Dreams.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I still miss Season of the Vine and Golden Dreams.>> I miss those a LOT. They were a couple of my favorites at DCA 1.0. I haven't been to DCA since the recent major renovations. But I'm still not convinced I would like it better than the DCA I first saw. The original park knew what it wanted to be. The current one, as far as I can tell, doesn't. Far more popular no doubt for locals who wanted nothing more than DLII. But I really enjoyed that it was a different kind of Disney Park. But then I think the AK is great too, so what do I know?
Originally Posted By leemac <<Just to clarify, do you mean that TDL is not attracting the number of guests OLC wishes or that there are not enough existing attractions to accommodate the existing crowd level?>> Every time I use that word it provokes a question! I appreciate it sounds weird. A park being under capacity means that it can't handle more crowds with the current menu. The current work will allow for TDL to bring in c.10% more guest annually.
Originally Posted By leemac <<As much as I like thrill rides myself, I'm excited by the possibilities of some family-friendly big-budget E-tickets. It's been a long time since a new one was introduced to any Disney park (I think the last one was Sinbad, and before that we'd have to go back to the MGM backlot tour or the EPCOT Center attractions) so I'm very interested to see what they can create for a new generation with modern technology>> I've never been much of a thrill ride person - I don't visit amusement parks at all - and my coaster limit is usually Screamin'. I remember riding Viper at SFMM in the early 90s and almost passing out. The thought that these ultra coasters are now twice as high doesn't interest me in the slightest. As populations age like Japan and the USA the move needs to be away from those experiences towards multi-generational shared attractions. That almost brings us full circle back to the Haunted Mansions and POTC of the world. I'm hugely bias as it happened on my watch but I think Mystic Manor is one of the finest family attractions ever built. It is up there with the greatest. I've also never quite grasped why Ride & Go Seek! didn't quite work in TDL. I still love the attraction and believe it was executed to near perfection but for some reason it doesn't quite resonate in the same way as Hunny Hunt.
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<Only Stormrider now needs a change and that will come in due course anyhow.>> I will not miss it. It's a pretty small piece of real estate though. I'm guessing it will just be a new film rather than something entirely different?>> A new movie. There isn't much that can be done with that tract of land as it is so compact. It was always the weakest attraction on Opening Day for me. Lacked the sort of Hollywood SFX that would have made it work effectively. The lack of engaging characters also means that you have no empathy for the situation. A bit part of Star Tours' success is based on the shared experience with the pilot and the rest of the cast. Just throwing cheesy weather effects at you isn't particularly clever.
Originally Posted By leemac <<In terms of cost, is this going to be bigger than NFL at TDL? A few people have tossed a massive $400 million figure for the Frozen E-ticket, which sounds ridiculous even by Disney standards.>> No. Developing a brownfield site is significantly more expensive that a greenfield one. "People"? Let's be absolutely clear. A very small group of folks see the estimating project plan for TDR as it is signed off by OLC and not WDI/WDAJ. The only reliable source of budget costs is when OLC go public. Tower of Terror at TDS is the only attraction to come even close to the cost of RSR and it is still shy by tens of millions of dollars. RSR is the poster child for excessive development and production costs. It would never have been approved at the outset if it had been budgeted at $350m. It won't have a return on investment. At present you can expect the Frozen attraction to be more similar to Mystic Manor. Thats all I'm saying.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I'm surprised by this. I thought it was quite well-received, especially compared to BraviSEAmo. Seeing how huge Fantasmic is state side, I expected the Japanese to embrace it just as strongly. Quite shocked they have plans to axe it. Even BraviSEAmo lasted 7 years. I know they had plans to add World of Color at one point, but it seems that wouldn't be a good fit either despite minimal staffing costs.>> F! exit polls are dire. The show doesn't resonate at all. Sure it is higher rated than BraviSEAmo! but that isn't difficult. Selling sex in a Disney theme park is wrong on so many different levels. That show had no place whatsoever in the Disney canon. Only Gavin Greenaway's score deserves any sort of mention. WoC was good to go for ages and then OLC balked at the shared development costs (the way the deal with OLC works is that if they pick up a new tech show/attraction within X years (I'm not disclosing how long) then they have to pick up a share of the R&D costs) which had ballooned under Steven Davison for the DCA show when he rejected WET Design's tech. So they opted for something else. The success of WoC at DCA and OUAT at TDL will mean WoC will eventually come back to the TDS 5YP. Davison's recent shows are a boon to the operating partners with such little on-going operating costs.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I still miss Season of the Vine and Golden Dreams.>> Sadly they were the last vestiges of the Epcot mantra. They just don't fit into Iger's philosophy for the company whereby synergy needs to reach into every corner. The mistake with Golden Dreams was to have its budget sliced and diced during production. The original concept was up there with Tom Fitzgerald's other gem CineMagique. It would have survived as it had sufficient wow to excite audience.
Originally Posted By NGrey <<A new movie. There isn't much that can be done with that tract of land as it is so compact. It was always the weakest attraction on Opening Day for me. Lacked the sort of Hollywood SFX that would have made it work effectively...>> I agree on all counts. Maybe the language barrier played a part too, but I found the entire premise incredibly cheesy. The ending even more nonsensical. It doesn't help that the film quality hasn't aged well at all. They really need to go HD and/or 3D like most modern simulators. The one cool thing about StormRider was the in-cabin physical prop- I hope they keep that element in its eventual replacement.
Originally Posted By NGrey <<WoC was good to go for ages and then OLC balked at the shared development costs (the way the deal with OLC works is that if they pick up a new tech show/attraction within X years (I'm not disclosing how long) then they have to pick up a share of the R&D costs) which had ballooned under Steven Davison for the DCA show when he rejected WET Design's tech. So they opted for something else. The success of WoC at DCA and OUAT at TDL will mean WoC will eventually come back to the TDS 5YP. Davison's recent shows are a boon to the operating partners with such little on-going operating costs.>> I remember another factor against WoC being that OLC didn't want to drain the entire lagoon to install the complicated fountain tech as it would involve disrupting the transit steamer and other lagoon shows for a very lengthy period of time. It seems like it would have been very complicated given all the bodies of water at TDS are linked together. What you described regarding the shared R&D cost makes sense too. I remember you posting that they waited 4 years to clone TSMM for that reason alone. WoC is now 5 years into its performance, so it seems that R&D cost is no longer a concern. Another concern I've seen brought up is that Japanese guests don't like to get wet, and the powerful WoC fountains coupled with the constantly windy conditions at the park might present an issue.
Originally Posted By NGrey <<At present you can expect the Frozen attraction to be more similar to Mystic Manor. Thats all I'm saying>> I'm very happy to hear that. It may just be my favorite attraction anywhere. A timeless masterpiece in every way. I am not a fan of the Frozen IP at all, but scale and execution are ultimately what determine attraction quality.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I agree on all counts. Maybe the language barrier played a part too, but I found the entire premise incredibly cheesy. The ending even more nonsensical. It doesn't help that the film quality hasn't aged well at all. They really need to go HD and/or 3D like most modern simulators. The one cool thing about StormRider was the in-cabin physical prop- I hope they keep that element in its eventual replacement.>> It was literally sold as "Twister in a simulator" - totally unoriginal and uninspiring. Digital Domain did the SFX so I'm not sure why they turned out so hokey. It had enough credentials to work. Both Golden Dreams and CineMagique seemed to have better SFX and they were done on far smaller budgets at the same time.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I remember another factor against WoC being that OLC didn't want to drain the entire lagoon to install the complicated fountain tech as it would involve disrupting the transit steamer and other lagoon shows for a very lengthy period of time. It seems like it would have been very complicated given all the bodies of water at TDS are linked together.>> There were going to be three banks of fountain heads so it didn't need full draining and could have been dammed off. The Harbor will need a full drain and clean at some point anyhow so hopefully they will consider WoC at that point. It is probably the only thing of scale that would work in that space. I miss Mythica more than just about every Disney show that has been retired. It was perfect.
Originally Posted By leemac <<It may just be my favorite attraction anywhere.>> Yours and mine both. It is flawless. Rob Coltrin's concept was executed to a tee. Garner Holt executed Albert and Henry Mystic perfectly. The finale scene is probably the most impactful I've ever seen - maybe even more than exiting the attic into the graveyard for HM. It just works and there is so much to take in.
Originally Posted By NGrey <<There were going to be three banks of fountain heads so it didn't need full draining and could have been dammed off. The Harbor will need a full drain and clean at some point anyhow so hopefully they will consider WoC at that point. It is probably the only thing of scale that would work in that space.>> How would the fountains, once installed, affect traffic on the lagoon? I frequently see the entire platform out of the water at DCA, even during the day. They would have to submerge it deep enough at TDS to accommodate the various watercraft in the lagoon. <<I miss Mythica more than just about every Disney show that has been retired. It was perfect.>> Agreed. Its run was far too short. The fanbase must have been livid at the decision to terminate it, especially just to cut costs. Between the absence of the daytime lagoon show and the currently lackluster Fantasmic, I hope OLC won't drag their feet on adding new shows. TDL, in comparison, has a much more attractive and spectacular nighttime offering in Dreamlights and OUAT.
Originally Posted By leemac <<How would the fountains, once installed, affect traffic on the lagoon? I frequently see the entire platform out of the water at DCA, even during the day. They would have to submerge it deep enough at TDS to accommodate the various watercraft in the lagoon.>> I'm not sure what the maintenance regime is at DCA but in theory they are supposed to be submerged until 90 minutes out. So they would have been below the hull of the Transit Steam Liner.
