Originally Posted By leemac <<Agreed. Its run was far too short. The fanbase must have been livid at the decision to terminate it, especially just to cut costs. Between the absence of the daytime lagoon show and the currently lackluster Fantasmic, I hope OLC won't drag their feet on adding new shows. TDL, in comparison, has a much more attractive and spectacular nighttime offering in Dreamlights and OUAT.>> I've never seen such an outpouring of emotion at a Disney park as I saw on the final day of Mythica. It was a horrible day - rained almost solidly until showtime but it was dry for the show and it wasn't the alternate version. People were literally dazed and confused after it exited the lagoon. It was like a wake. I'm glad I got to experience it as a normal guest for the final performance. I'm not sure we will ever see a show of that size, scale and spectacle at a Disney park anywhere.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>You don't consider Monsters Inc. an e-ticket?<< Dang it, another one I forgot! It was closed for refurbishment during my only trip to TDL since it opened (last summer), so I haven't gotten to experience it firsthand. It's definitely a tough one to judge from videos because it's so dark, but I definitely think it would count as an E-ticket >>Face it folks... all they are doing is a Frozen OVERLAY on Maelstrom. Who really cares?<< Although they're using the same basic ride layout (with some modifications), my understanding is that this is much more than an overlay like it's a small world or Haunted Mansion get at DL. It seems like this conversion will be more like the switch from Dreamflight to Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin than from El Rio Del Tiempo to the Gran Fiesta Tour More than anything, I'm still bitter that they're attempting to claim that Frozen has any relevance or authenticity to Norwegian culture. Sure, there were some elements that were inspired by the culture, but the way that they defined the kingdom in the movie makes it clear that they wanted it to be its own thing. As someone with some Norwegian heritage that really puts me off, not to mention the bigger implications about World Showcase's future >>I haven't been to DCA since the recent major renovations. But I'm still not convinced I would like it better than the DCA I first saw. The original park knew what it wanted to be. The current one, as far as I can tell, doesn't.<< Although the park currently is more of a full-day experience, the park is a thematic mess. There are some elements that stick pretty true to the original California theme, while there are a lot of things that are unapologetically Disney-for-the-sake-of-Disney. The original park took some chances and delivered something new and different. The new stuff all just seems very safe, and like they don't expect much intellectual prowess from the guests It's not a bad park, but it's certainly not anywhere near as good as it could have been. Although well executed, the program-level decisions made during the redo were the worst thing to happen to the park since the tiny budget it got when it opened
Originally Posted By RandySavage Hi leemac, Thanks for shedding some light and sharing some insights on TDR. Very interesting reading. I'm curious about the recently completed expansion to the Med Harbor plaza. From photos it looks like they just moved the waterfront about 5-10 meters inward, making the plaza even larger. The press release mentioned a stage, but I can't see anything like that. What was the purpose/thinking behind this in-fill?
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>RSR is the poster child for excessive development and production costs. It would never have been approved at the outset if it had been budgeted at $350m. It won't have a return on investment.<< There are so many elements of the DCA redo project that make me scratch my head, but this is the biggest one. I'm glad that it's been a hit with guests, but I can't imagine why it cost so much, or where all the money went. Sure, it's a step up from the original TestTrack (which I believe cost about $100M in the late 90's), but it's not *so much* better to justify more than 3X the cost (on a tangent, I also think that the TestTrack redo a couple years ago made it less fun than the original, but that's a discussion for another time) >>Sure it is higher rated than BraviSEAmo! but that isn't difficult. Selling sex in a Disney theme park is wrong on so many different levels. That show had no place whatsoever in the Disney canon. Only Gavin Greenaway's score deserves any sort of mention.<< Conceptually I think that BraviSEAmo was just about perfect, but it just fell completely flat in reality. The (nearly) character-free high-concept show is great for a more mature park, and the water and fire story seemed like a natural fit for a sea-based park with a volcano at the center But it was just sort of a bland show. It was very pretty and lovely, but the story and drama arc was so slow that it felt kind of lackluster. There were a lot of great technical elements in the show, like the firebird (and the pyro that it shot off, after being submerged in the lagoon all day long), the deceptively simple fountains, and the incorporation of Mt Prometheus into the show's *ahem* climax, but there simply wasn't enough to tie it all together I just finished re-listening to the score, and it still holds up really well. There are definitely some echoes of Reflections of Earth, which is a good thing in my book! >>At present you can expect the Frozen attraction to be more similar to Mystic Manor. Thats all I'm saying.<< That sounds very promising, and the concept art so far also makes me really excited for this area. It looks like it will all be really well done, but that's exactly what I expect at TDS I know they will be fundamentally different attractions, but hopefully some of the good ideas will make their way into the WDW attraction too
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>I'm not sure what the maintenance regime is at DCA but in theory they are supposed to be submerged until 90 minutes out.<< I don't know what the official protocol is, but it's rare that all 3 platforms are submerged at any time. I know when they were prepping the show for opening they had some earthquake damage to the lifts, so the platforms spent the entire summer in the 'up' position without even attempting to lower them for fear of them getting stuck 'down' and ruining their big summer promotion. For a while they had a daytime show in Paradise Park that used the fountains in the background, based on Disney Channel movies. With DCA's relaunch, they made a daytime show with Goofy conducting the fountains. Although the official reason for these was to add entertainment, there were persistent rumors that they had trouble with the lifts, and added the shows to give them an excuse to keep some of the platforms up all day. That seems a little far fetched, but still plausible. As far as I know, both shows have been discontinued for at least a year >>So they would have been below the hull of the Transit Steam Liner.<< That would probably be idea, but depending on how they configure the platforms, they could also simply route the Steamers around them. At DL, they have barrels floating in Rivers of America to mark the boundaries of the Fantasmic! fountain pits, and the canoes and rafts just steer around them. That would be harder to do with the larger vessels in TDS (and the barrels/buoys are an eyesore), but it could be an easier solution
Originally Posted By NGrey <<I'm not sure we will ever see a show of that size, scale and spectacle at a Disney park anywhere.>> It might work with a reduced cast. Unfortunately, OLC seem to be favoring replacing live performers with projections where possible. E.g. Mermaid Theater replacement and the concept art of the upcoming Hangar Stage show
Originally Posted By NGrey <<The press release mentioned a stage, but I can't see anything like that. What was the purpose/thinking behind this in-fill?>> I've seen pictures of the stage on DeepDisney. Apparently it is brought in prior to the start of the seasonal event shows and then quickly deconstructed after. Here is a picture. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://daily.deepdisney.com/img3/150407/063002015040700.htm">http://daily.deepdisney.com/im...0700.htm</a>
Originally Posted By NGrey <<That would probably be idea, but depending on how they configure the platforms, they could also simply route the Steamers around them.>> That reminds me of another point. WoC's projections only really work from a centered viewing angle like Paradise Park. Given the curved nature of Mediterranean Harbor, it seems a good portion of guests would have a less than ideal view. It would still be better than Fantasmic though.
Originally Posted By RandySavage ^Thanks for the pic. That the expanded area is being used for a raised performance space explains it.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>Given the curved nature of Mediterranean Harbor, it seems a good portion of guests would have a less than ideal view.<< I would imagine that they would have multiple sets of screens facing each of the viewing areas (main entrance area, Lido Isle, HMS Renaissance, Roman ruins) and some sort of fountains that can be seen from all over. Similar to Fantasmic!, it would be a different layout than the existing versions, but I think this could transition easier It will be interesting to see what DAK does for Rivers of Light, since it doesn't look like they're building any sort of permanent platforms, so perhaps TDS could use a barge-based system. They've already built some pretty impressive fountain barges for their previous shows, so this could just be an extension of that
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Dang it, another one I forgot! It was closed for refurbishment during my only trip to TDL since it opened (last summer), so I haven't gotten to experience it firsthand. It's definitely a tough one to judge from videos because it's so dark, but I definitely think it would count as an E-ticket.> I think you went right before me last summer, and Monsters opened on the last day of my trip, so we got to ride it. It was okay, but I was more impressed with Hunny Hunt.
Originally Posted By leemac <<The press release mentioned a stage, but I can't see anything like that. What was the purpose/thinking behind this in-fill?>> It was mentioned elsewhere but it a temporary moveable unit that can be pulled out from the BOH marina and locked into position quickly and easily. Med Harbor was never designed for lagoon shows and it has been a constant gripe amongst guests that spots like directly in front of the Miracosta and Lido Isle aren't large enough or graded sufficiently for shows. Special events had only just started to take off when TDS was designed (the break-out was the 15th Carnival season in '98) but the designers should have taken that into consideration when it actually came to construction. OLC are now effectively spending the budget of a lagoon show to fix those problems.
Originally Posted By leemac <<There are so many elements of the DCA redo project that make me scratch my head, but this is the biggest one. I'm glad that it's been a hit with guests, but I can't imagine why it cost so much, or where all the money went. Sure, it's a step up from the original TestTrack (which I believe cost about $100M in the late 90's), but it's not *so much* better to justify more than 3X the cost>> It is classic Lasseter - he protects overruns for his beloved projects like no-one I've ever seen. He actively encouraged the overruns by taking the entire creative team on Route 66 booze trips and constantly changing out show scenes. Same thing happened on the Subs. It became a dumping ground in SAP timesheet costing for just about everything. The rockwork and most of the engineering came in around budget but they overspent on changing elements throughout from blue sky development to production. The vendors absolutely hated it as a project because the designs were moving targets. The problem was that the show producer is a political animal that was looking for the next big gig. She got on Lasseter's side and then pandered to his every whim on the project. No-one dares say boo to Lasseter so he gets what he wants.
Originally Posted By leemac <<But it was just sort of a bland show. It was very pretty and lovely, but the story and drama arc was so slow that it felt kind of lackluster. There were a lot of great technical elements in the show, like the firebird (and the pyro that it shot off, after being submerged in the lagoon all day long), the deceptively simple fountains, and the incorporation of Mt Prometheus into the show's *ahem* climax, but there simply wasn't enough to tie it all together>> It was the classic story of trying to bring in avant garde designers who have excelled in their own field into the Disney universe. Anne Hamburger was desperately trying to engage leading directors in theme park fare that was a good idea at a time when a lot of the theme park entertainment being produced was formulaic and uninspiring. Yves Pepin did the well-regarded Paris Millennium show involving the Eiffel Tower and Olympic opening and closing ceremonies (the overblown Beijing games). He also put together the EDL opening ceremony in '92 that lacked any sense of story or occasion. It just fell flat for two reasons IMHO: 1) The technology wasn't there. The Firebird just couldn't move quickly enough to get into position 2) Once the Firebird appears there is no Act III "wow" moment as there wasn't an engaging storyline that progressed. Mythica worked incredibly well because the show continued to add larger elements as it progress. Act II saw the gem goddesses appear from the character barges and then Act III has the greatest reveal of any Disney show when the mythical beast barges enter the lagoon. It's all flash and no storytelling. $30m doesn't always buy a lot at TDR but it should have bought a whole lot more. BraviSEAmo! was very superficial. Yves went ballistic when OLC demanded Mickey lead out the show. He wanted an entirely character-free show. I've always had my suspicions that he deliberately camped up Mickey with that weird Neptune/-type costume to humiliate a character he didn't want in his show. I always found it amusing that most of the guests - even the hardcore fans - never grasped that the show was about the female water god having sex with the male firebird. The orgasm is as clear as day as jets of water "washed" over both of them!
Originally Posted By leemac <<I just finished re-listening to the score, and it still holds up really well. There are definitely some echoes of Reflections of Earth, which is a good thing in my book!>> Both are Greenaway classics. The guy just doesn't score enough shows or movies. He is part of Hans Zimmer's collective but usually sticks to orchestrations which I think is a loss to the industry. Both scores are amongst the finest ever produced for Disney shows. Alan Silvestri's score for Mythica is still the Daddy.
Originally Posted By leemac <<That reminds me of another point. WoC's projections only really work from a centered viewing angle like Paradise Park. Given the curved nature of Mediterranean Harbor, it seems a good portion of guests would have a less than ideal view. It would still be better than Fantasmic though.>> There would have been three banks of fountainheads. Fortress, Lido Isle and Zambini Brothers sides. Guests would have been in closer proximity so I guess there may have been the issue of being able to see it all (although the length of the performance platforms were shorter than at DCA). The funny thing is that it was all designed and ready to go down to the schematics of fountain location. Then when F! came along they decided they didn't want mist screens due to the viewing issues! Davison knows that F! has major issues and he'd like to set the record straight and fix the show but OLC aren't prepared to spend a penny on it right now. Davison hits a lot of home runs - probably more than any person at WDI - but this one was a strike-out.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Apparently it is brought in prior to the start of the seasonal event shows and then quickly deconstructed after. >> That's right. The photo geeks love taking photos of the special event performance with Prometheus in the background so it is a popular spot. The area is slightly raked towards the water so it isn't great viewing. Putting in a raised platform solves the conundrum. Personally I'd prefer it if they just didn't use that area for the show elements of the special events. The staging looks out of place and the ocean of guests camped out there isn't great from an operational perspective when it is the entrance to the park.
Originally Posted By NGrey <<The funny thing is that it was all designed and ready to go down to the schematics of fountain location. Then when F! came along they decided they didn't want mist screens due to the viewing issues!>> I could have sworn I saw mist screens during the Sorcerer Mickey scene, but they were definitely absent from the rest of the show. I really don't think the giant hat works well at all as a screen. Nor do the giant inflatable balloons since the image loops back onto itself. <<Davison knows that F! has major issues and he'd like to set the record straight and fix the show but OLC aren't prepared to spend a penny on it right now. Davison hits a lot of home runs - probably more than any person at WDI - but this one was a strike-out.>> That's a real shame. OLC seems to have all but given up on the show at this point. The number of barges have been cut in half and the pyro and fire significantly reduced according to Japanese bloggers. It really does appear they are getting ready to cut their losses.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I could have sworn I saw mist screens during the Sorcerer Mickey scene, but they were definitely absent from the rest of the show. I really don't think the giant hat works well at all as a screen. Nor do the giant inflatable balloons since the image loops back onto itself. >> Sorry I wasn't clear. They are used to "mask" the Hat as it gets into position. The decision was that the winds that sweep through Tokyo Bay made the F! mist screens unworkable. I never totally subscribed to that theory but ultimately shows need an alternate version in TDR and an alternate version of traditional F! without mist screens isn't a show at all!
Originally Posted By NGrey <<The decision was that the winds that sweep through Tokyo Bay made the F! mist screens unworkable. I never totally subscribed to that theory but ultimately shows need an alternate version in TDR and an alternate version of traditional F! without mist screens isn't a show at all!>> Is that still their stance? If so, I can't see WoC ever being accepted. Mist screens are even more integral to that show than Fantasmic.
