Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I think it's silly that people keep calling this unofficial $1 billion investment a "fix".
Originally Posted By k_peek_2000 Thats what it is. Disney would never put 1 billion dollars into a single park at once. Unless Walt was alive.
Originally Posted By dshyates We don't know the numbers, maybe DCA is so popular that only that kind of major addition could handle the surplus tourists clamouring to get in to the constantly sold out wonderland. Anyone seen the hordes climbing the fence just for a peek?
Originally Posted By dshyates Just like last year after labor day it goes back to a 6pm weekday close time. They have a closed park sitting next to Disneyland. Nuff said.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It wouldn't surprise me if the additions to MGM after its opening (TOT, RnRR, Fantasmic, Star Tours, etc. etc.) exceeded its initial cost. DCA was clearly based on the "open light, add more later" MGM model, and that was always its planned trajectory. It was a mistake on Disney's part since DCA was a second gate rather than a third, and had the super-critical SoCal market to deal with. But they obviously think long-term prospects are good or they wouldn't spend that kind of money on it.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Ah, yes, the old 9/11 answer" Ah, yes, the discounting of absolutely every concept except the one: DCA SUCKS. People are actually looking at all sorts of things. That's the reality. If you want to ignore reality, that's fine, but you look like another one trick pony. "I think it's silly that people keep calling this unofficial $1 billion investment a "fix". " They do it because that's all they can see things as. Really, it's a very limited viewpoint on the world. "We don't know the numbers, maybe DCA is so popular that only that kind of major addition " Nobody has said such a thing, either. "It was a mistake on Disney's part since DCA was a second gate rather than a third" This is true. It was also just a little too light. They needed a bit more here and there. And a bit less here and there. Because it wasn't perfect, it was perfectly fine for an opening, but it needed to be caught up with, and now after a few years, and seeing that there is a lot of room to grow the business in Anaheim, they are reinvesting. This is a whole lot simpler, and less machiavellian than the entire DCA SUCKS philosophy. It's probably a lot more realistic, too. But, hey, why let reality intrude on years long rants about the place? Being angry about DCA seems to be a good pastime for some folks.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "Disney would never put 1 billion dollars into a single park at once." Based on what? And no, it isn't all being spent at once. According to the rumor it's being invested over a ten year period.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> This is a whole lot simpler, and less machiavellian than the entire DCA SUCKS philosophy. It's probably a lot more realistic, too. << Actually it's about as simple, because your view assiduously avoids confronting the reality that the park fell way short of expectations in it's early years - not only of guest count but of guest expectations. And certainly in revenue, although people love to point out that we don't really "know" that. C'mon. I agree with you inasmuch as it's a cold-hearted business calculation, but factored into the equation is the unknowable factor of how DCA has negatively impacted on the disney brand - especially among their most ardent fans. Missteps have consequences, and part of the billion dollar "fix" is the result of poor choices during the initial design and creative phases. In a sense they're undoing what's already been done, similar to TL`98 - less than ten years later almost no vestiges of that massive 'upgrade' are left, and instead they're spending heavily to return to the previous 'look and feel' of the area.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << I agree with you inasmuch as it's a cold-hearted business calculation, but factored into the equation is the unknowable factor of how DCA has negatively impacted on the disney brand - especially among their most ardent fans. >> I'm curious as to how you measure this negative impact? Is attendance down significantly since DCA opened? Is the hotel occupancy rate down? Is the DLR less profitable? By the measures I am familiary with, DLR has recovered fairly well from the industry-wide travel slowdown since 9/11. Domestic travel is down this year, but international travelers are making up some of the difference. None of the other SoCal parks have performed as well as DLR since 9/11. When do you expect this negative impact to manifest itself?
Originally Posted By jonvn "avoids confronting the reality that the park fell way short of expectations in it's early years" Well, actually, no it doesn't. I just don't mention that because I don't know if that's true, and no one else here does either. I have said numerous times now that it may have not done as well as hoped, but by how much and in what areas, and why, that is not something I can sit here an pronounce like so many others seem to feel they are able to with absolutely no knowledge of any of it. "unknowable factor of how DCA has negatively impacted on the disney brand" My guess would be not at all. Almost no one cares. The few who do are numbered in the dozens perhaps. They sell to millions. There is a difference in scale here that needs to be grasped. Beyond the relatively small fan base like people who post on these boards, the average person could not care less. Beyond that, you have to look at what the park was meant to do. It has to be understood in THOSE terms, not terms we want to apply. It was not meant as a primary destination park, so to measure it on those terms is pointless. It also was not meant to be filled to the rafters every single day. So to judge it on that as a criteria is also really not appropriate. We heard a figure of 7 million. Did it make that number? Rumors say no. But why not, and by how much, and all. None of that is known. What also is not known is how hotel occupancy and number of days at the resort have changed. You see, for every hour you are on Disney proprety, people spend a certain average amount. Has the expansion worked to keep you on property longer? Then how is that factored into how well it did? You see, there's all sorts of angles to this. And people keep looking at it from this single simplistic view that really is quite myopic and without understanding of any other aspect of the place or its surrounding financial or other goals. You can't just describe things as stark black and white. It simply never reflects the reality of any situation. We have someone who posts here in world events who sees the world in this manner, and it is such a warped perspective that it's almost always wrong about everything. But that's what happens when you only allow yourself a single viewpoint and a single vision or idea. It just isn't the way the world works. "In a sense they're undoing what's already been done, similar to TL`98" That was a disaster. I agree. It was ok but then they closed the subs, and rocket rods, and well, it was a mess. Spent a pack of money on it too. It was like $100 million? Outrageous expenditure for what they got. The amount spent was so large that I raelly do fault the people who did the creative work on this, becaues that is simply so much to have given us so little. Of course you can do more if you are given more money. That's not exactly a brain teaser. But you should not have to spend $500 million to clean up this one area of this one park. Maybe they didn't spend enough on the area, but on the other hand it seems to me that the way the money they had WAS spent maybe was not as effective as it should have been. Again, looking at it from two sides, not just the "built on the cheap" mentality and commentary so often seen.
Originally Posted By danyoung >"avoids confronting the reality that the park fell way short of expectations in it's early years" Well, actually, no it doesn't. I just don't mention that because I don't know if that's true, and no one else here does either.< Of course we do - OF COURSE WE DO!!! How many times does it need to be mentioned that DCA opened under the theory that it would be so incredibly successful that AP's wouldn't be needed. Two park tickets wouldn't be needed. The park was going to sell out every day with full price single gate tickets. How do we know this? Cuz Disney didn't sell two park tickets or AP's for DCA! They sure did when Epcot came on line. They went with three-fers when D/MGM came online. It's only with DCA that they thought that the park would stand on its own. They found out within weeks that this wasn't the case, and proceeded to basically give the admission away to AP'ers, and the two park DL ticket was quickly born. During the park's first 3 years, the only days that they came close to capacity were the days near the end of the DCA ticket giveaway periods, where everyone in SoCal had to use their FREE DCA ticket or lose it. A park that packs out only on free days isn't doing that well, is it? There is absolutely no question to any intelligent person who has studied the facts of the park's birth that the park didn't live up to early expectations. Is that failure? Well, that's a semantic call. Are they doing enough business now to say that they're a success? There's something that no one outside of Disney will ever know. The fact of the 1.2 bil can be seen in two ways - either the park has been sucking and is in need of some serious cash quickly before it fails completely, or it's a slowly improving business enterprise that has been proven to have the potential for success and is deserving of the cash. Again, unless you're high up with the Mouse, you'll never know for sure which one's correct.
Originally Posted By dshyates look guys there are no "all sorts of angles to this". And the post 9/11 slow down doesn't matter diddly. Or the rainy season. What we are looking at is a park that they have to close a 6pm after labor day to stop the bleeding. They are about to dump another 1 billion dollars into it. call it a fix. call it reinvestment, call it what you want. But my guess is they are hoping that after they spend the money, they won't have a closed park ever sitting next to an open Disneyland.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << What we are looking at is a park that they have to close a 6pm after labor day to stop the bleeding. >> You do realize that after Labor Day, all the major So Cal theme parks close at 6 PM? DL is the only real exception. Should we assume that when DL closed its gates during certain days of the week in the off season many years ago it was because the park was such a failure that it needed to stop the bleeding?
Originally Posted By bean "Just like last year after labor day it goes back to a 6pm weekday close time. They have a closed park sitting next to Disneyland. Nuff said" This means nothing, have you seen WDW's hours lately for their second, third and fourth gate even before the end of summer? Animal kingdom august 18 9:00am - 6:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 19 9:00am - 6:00pm august 20 9:00am - 6:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 21 9:00am - 6:00pm august 22 9:00am - 6:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 23 9:00am - 6:00pm august 24 9:00am - 6:00pm august 25 9:00am - 6:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 26 9:00am - 5:00pm august 27 9:00am - 5:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 28 9:00am - 5:00pm august 29 9:00am - 5:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 30 9:00am - 5:00pm august 31 9:00am - 5:00pm MGM august 18 9:00am - 8:30pm august 19 9:00am - 8:00pm august 20 9:00am - 8:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 21 9:00am - 8:00pm august 22 9:00am - 10:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 23 9:00am - 8:00pm august 24 9:00am - 8:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 25 9:00am - 8:00pm august 26 9:00am - 8:00pm august 27 9:00am - 8:00pm august 28 9:00am - 10:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 29 9:00am - 6:00pm august 30 9:00am - 8:00pm august31 9:00am - 8:00pm Epcot august 18 Future World 9:00am - 7:00pm World Showcase 11:00am - 9:00pm august 19 Future World 9:00am - 7:00pm World Showcase 11:00am - 9:00pm Extra Magic Hours august 20 - 31 Future World 9:00am - 7:00pm World Showcase 11:00am - 9:00pm even the Magic Kigndom has several days through out the month of august closing at 7pm even saturdays. Park hours mean nothing when it comes to the success of a park. PArk hours have always been adjusted to peak seasons.
Originally Posted By bean "Disney would never put 1 billion dollars into a single park at once." since when "Based on what? And no, it isn't all being spent at once. According to the rumor it's being invested over a ten year period." your right and it has been done before but since DCA is the park with the bad reputation it is being singled out.
Originally Posted By bean "It wouldn't surprise me if the additions to MGM after its opening (TOT, RnRR, Fantasmic, Star Tours, etc. etc.) exceeded its initial cost. DCA was clearly based on the "open light, add more later" MGM model, and that was always its planned trajectory. It was a mistake on Disney's part since DCA was a second gate rather than a third, and had the super-critical SoCal market to deal with. But they obviously think long-term prospects are good or they wouldn't spend that kind of money on it." you are so right.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think it's silly that people keep calling this unofficial $1 billion investment a "fix".>> I hear the real number is just shy of $1.3 billion. Now, I don't know if I'd call it a 'fix' ... but a 'reinvention' might be the proper term.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<It was a mistake on Disney's part since DCA was a second gate rather than a third, and had the super-critical SoCal market to deal with. But they obviously think long-term prospects are good or they wouldn't spend that kind of money on it.>> Correct on both counts. You nailed the analogy to the third gate because even though I enjoy DCA a lot, there's the feel of a third gate. You can't compare it to Epcot or TDS because those parks were monumentally different in scope, investment and purpose. But you can easily compare it to the Disney-MGM Studios. Perhaps that's why Bob Weis, lead designer of the Studios -- as well as the never built Disney-MGM-Europe and Disney's America -- was brought back to helm the redo. Just an opinion, but if DCA had been the third park added in the strawberry fields after something grander went into the parking lot, it would have been a much bigger success. And it wouldn't have all the fan vitriol ... but we'll never know.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<It also was not meant to be filled to the rafters every single day. So to judge it on that as a criteria is also really not appropriate.>> Paging Darkbeer to the thread ... please insert George Kalogridis 2001 LA Times quote here. Jon, TDA did expect the place to be filled to the rafters every day when it opened. Really. They said it to the media. And they planned around those assumptions in TDA. Clearly, they didn't make their own projections.
