Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Here's something for you all to chew on: <a href="http://www.godandscience.org/" target="_blank">http://www.godandscience.org/</a>
Originally Posted By mele <<<a href="http://www.godandscience.org/>>" target="_blank">http://www.godandscience.org/>></a> Yes, there are many topics on that website. This is a nice one about Disney... "I have heard from many Christians that the Harry Potter series is fantasy, and so it is okay to indulge in it, since it isn't "real" witchcraft. The problem that we Christians have is that we have believed the Disney lie that witchcraft is okay, or maybe just a minor sin."
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn God really isn't very "proveable", and probably intends it to be that way. This is the point of faith.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Yes, there are many topics on that website. This is a nice one about Disney..." Not really sure what you mean here. I'm not endorsing the site linked nor condoning it, as I found it on a Google search.
Originally Posted By mele I didn't mean anything by it. Just saw a Disney reference. Nothing against you. Sorry I didn't make that clearer.
Originally Posted By DlandJB So, what I am getting here is that a lot of people do believe in God, but have a disdain for formal religion. Am I correct in assuming that these folks have individual interpretations of what represents God? >>>>> Not distain - but..understanding of human frailty and pride. I think that we all as individuals were made special and we each have some different way of giving back. Does that mean that all of the ways are equally valid? I don't think they can be. But sometimes the differences are very small. <<Any thoughts on eternal damnation, disease, famine, genocide and other creations of the omnipotent, all knowing, all loving creator?>> God didn't create damnation - people did. People who choose to be separated from God. Genocide - also created by people with free will. Famine -- can be man-made - certainly there is enough food in this world to share, but greed of some people keep it from those that need it. There is no reason for famine. Disease -- trickier - except we really don't know all the ways that we influence the environment. What we do know is that we live in a broken world. This world isn't meant to be perfect. It is meant, in my opinion, to be our training ground. If disease exisits, we have the opportunity to show compassion, to care for the sick, to train as doctors and health care professionals. Nothing is made to last on this earth because this earth isn't made to last as we know it. If we are going to give God the blame fo the bad things that happen, can we also give him kudos for the good things? Goodness knows, there are a lot more good things that happen in this world than bad things. I think the balance is still on His side.
Originally Posted By DlandJB If Mankind represents Gods crowning achievment, then the perfection of God must be questioned.>>> God's crowing achievement, imo, is redemption.
Originally Posted By ecdc I'm currently listening to Bart Ehrman's book on the problem of suffering in the Bible. He does a great job of essentially dismantling this notion that it's because of free will that there's suffering. He reviews the history of this idea and points out, correctly I believe, that most people haven't given the issue much thought, and instead rely on pat answers that give them immediate resolution but don't address the deeper issues. For example, as DlandJB points out, in theory famine today isn't perhaps necessary; there's certainly enough food to go around. But what about 500 years ago? If famine struck, another region couldn't just load up a barge of food and ship it on over. What role did "free will" play in that? Do we take free will to an absurdist level, insisting that victims of famine chose not to move from a region that was suffering? What about drought? How does free will play into that? Of course, part of the problem is that most Christians want it both ways. It's perhaps understandable if someone has a view of God as the guy who simply got the ball rolling, then stepped aside. But most people don't seem to want it that way. They want a god who is both personally involved, and yet, constrained by free will. Which begs the question, why, if free will is so important, does god deign to interfere with it from time to time? And since he does interfere, then why not more often? Why does he pick and choose? Ehrman also asks, isn't there presumably free will in heaven? Yet, heaven is supposed to be free of suffering, so how much free will can there really be there? Ultimately, these questions all end up in the same place: it's a mystery and who are we to question god. Fair enough, but it seems like we should just start with that rather than inventing unsatisfactory, pat answers.
Originally Posted By Mr X **God really isn't very "proveable", and probably intends it to be that way. This is the point of faith.** Okay, that makes no sense. If that were true, why send his son down to perform shocking, amazing miracles all over the place (walking on water, raising people from the dead, etc...), and allow others to perform similar such miracles at other times (parting a sea, building a boat so big every animal in the world can fit in it, etc...), and yet now, nothin. He sure went out of his way to be "provable" a long time ago, many times. Why not now?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***isn't there presumably free will in heaven? Yet, heaven is supposed to be free of suffering, so how much free will can there really be there?*** That is an awesome question.
Originally Posted By pecos bill When an argument is presented with historic proof, scientific fact and crystal clear logic, and people still absolutely refuse to accept said argument, then further discussion seems pointless. I really dont want to compromise the comfort anyone finds in personal faith, but I do feel a responsibility to help spread that which every nerve in my brain says is the truth. My real beef is with the lies, hypocrisy, terror and oppression of organized religion.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >My real beef is with the lies, hypocrisy, terror and oppression of organized religion.< I am sure most non believers feel this way also, I certainly do! Two of the biggest religions, Christianity and Islam had their start with this behavior and the latter continues it today.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn <Okay, that makes no sense. If that were true, why send his son down to perform shocking, amazing miracles all over the place (walking on water, raising people from the dead, etc...), > Still requires faith to believe that Jesus wasn't actually a master illusionist with a twin brother.
Originally Posted By DlandJB They want a god who is both personally involved, and yet, constrained by free will. Which begs the question, why, if free will is so important, does god deign to interfere with it from time to time? And since he does interfere, then why not more often?>>> Who says that he doesn't? Maybe you have to look for it to see it. I think the point is that faith is what binds us to God. When you have it, you see the miraculous a lot more often. <<< Ehrman also asks, isn't there presumably free will in heaven? Yet, heaven is supposed to be free of suffering, so how much free will can there really be there?>> My mother in law likes to say that one thing is for certain about heaven -- when we get there, we are going to be surprised. That is, that we only get small glimpses of it here on earth and we can't imagine what it is like. It is beyond our comprehension. So how free manifests in heaven is hard to imagine. But we have been promised that there is no suffering in heaven, so I suppose God can do whatever he likes. Look, I can only share with you what I have experienced and learned. I've been to hell (lower case) and back and I would not have gotten back without my faith and without the redemption that God made possible through Jesus. I want to share that because I would not want to keep it from anyone. It isn't meant to be a threat - just an example. I don't have all the answers, but I can tell you that I know how it feels to have that absolute sense of peace and joy that can only come from God. I'm still a student of scripture and so I don't have the answers to all the questions - but if you really want them, you can find them.
Originally Posted By johnno52 If three hundred years from now someone wrote in a book that there was an Evangelist that cured sick and disabled people on a stage throughout the world, would you question that or believe it outright?
Originally Posted By johnno52 >My mother in law likes to say that one thing is for certain about heaven -- when we get there, we are going to be surprised< Why has she been there? >Look, I can only share with you what I have experienced and learned. I've been to hell (lower case) and back and I would not have gotten back without my faith and without the redemption that God made possible through Jesus.< Did you die? I thought we go to hell after we die? Do we get a second chance if we accept God while we're there? > But we have been promised that there is no suffering in heaven< The Jews were promised this too when they were sent to Warsaw.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I think the point is that faith is what binds us to God. When you have it, you see the miraculous a lot more often.*** Really? What genuine, unexplainable miracles have you seen?
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Just a few thoughts here..... I believe the most fundamental human trait is that of questioning. Some time hundreds of thousands of years ago, one of our prehistoric ancestors did something none of his contemporaries did: he asked a question. Not only that, he looked for answer. And that set te wheels in motion that led to humanity's explosive intellect. At some point, a question was asked for which there was no answer and the idea of god was born. The idea of god has accelerated the mind of the human beyond the possible into the impossible (as evidenced by the intellectual growth of the last 10,000 years). The idea of god is the most important idea that has ever been invented. It has done more to the human mind than anything else ever has. The idea of god, of immortality, of infinity, of the impossible, is driving humanity toward understanding these things. We are exploring the genetic code for the aging mechanism in the hope of turning it off. We are exploring space and worm holes and are trying to bridge the gap between galaxies using quantum physics. We are trying to bring back living beings that have been extinct for thousands - if not millions - of years. The idea of god is driving humanity to become god. And I have faith that we will achieve it one day. But the idea of god only helps us when it is unlimited. When we stop questioning, the trait that makes us human is ignored. When we stop questioning, we deny the power of the idea of god and deny humanity of reaching its full potential. For this reason, religion is dangerous. It tells the person that it has the answers and that there is no need to question anymore. The more restrictive the religion, the more inhuman...the more dangerous. I believe in god - it is mankind's destiny.
Originally Posted By DlandJB What genuine, unexplainable miracles have you seen?>>> I take it you want to have the blind see and the lame walk before you accept what I say. I can't satisfy that for you. You expect God as portrayed by Hollywood...I can't help you with that. Small but real miracles...a father on his death bed who could not open his eyes, who, upon hearing his daughter say she had to leave and knowing she would never see him alive again, opened his eyes one last time and looked into hers. A small gift..a minor miracle. A woman with septic shock who is told and whose family is told that there was little chance she would live until morning, now four years later. A family devestated by a suicide that has found a new life and a new hope. Countless stories of lives that were saved and renewed from loss and dispair. Maybe that isn't proof enough for you. That is your choice. And whether or not you want them, you are in my prayers too.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Why has she been there?<< >>Did you die? I thought we go to hell after we die? Do we get a second chance if we accept God while we're there?<< >>The Jews were promised this too when they were sent to Warsaw.<< These are completely inappropriate responses to sincere thoughts and beliefs. I don't share DlandJB's beliefs, but I see no reason to mock them, especially when she's participating in this discussion in good faith (no pun intended). Mock people like her and they go away and we're left with people who think just like us sitting around validating each other. That sounds an awful lot like church to me; I'd rather have intelligent people to discuss these issues with.
