Originally Posted By Mr X I think those are wonderful stories, sure. I personally wouldn't consider any of them to be some sort of "proof of miracles". The thing is, I think the term "miracle" is overused anyway. In particular, there's nothing miraculous about a family finding new hope, although of course it's a good thing and nice to hear. I'm not trying to slam your good feelings or take anything away from important events...I'm just saying that your contention that "if you believe, you see more miracles" is just not true. If it makes you feel better though, great. Appreciate the prayers.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I take it you want to have the blind see and the lame walk before you accept what I say.*** Even that wouldn't fall under "miracle", as far as I understand the word. Like I said, I think it is highly overused. To me, a "miracle" would be for the impossible to occur. Some of the things the bible mentions are, by definition, "real" miracles. Walking on water, parting oceans, rising from the dead, making food and wine out of thin air...that kinda stuff.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <He sure went out of his way to be "provable" a long time ago, many times. Why not now?> We are a different society now - our culture is very different, God's handling of his miracles and interaction with us has varied throughout the centuries. But to answer your question, I believe He has been busy doing stuff lately. www.Mormon.org
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Who says that he doesn't? Maybe you have to look for it to see it. I think the point is that faith is what binds us to God. When you have it, you see the miraculous a lot more often.<< Perhaps God does. But I don't think we can explain away every situation by saying "maybe." It seems clear that there's some definite capriciousness to God; he saves one parent's child but allows another to die. Thousands believed God saved them on 9/11, apparently oblivious that God allowed thousands to be incinerated. And I don't disagree with you on the idea that if you have faith, you see a lot more miracles. To me, that's precisely the point. Religion is entirely about expectations. It's why different religions with radically different beliefs can find "proof" for themselves in the Bible. When I was a religious person, I believed that every good thing that happened to me came from God. Now I'm a non-believer, and life is better than ever. We all get what we expect. >>Look, I can only share with you what I have experienced and learned. I've been to hell (lower case) and back and I would not have gotten back without my faith and without the redemption that God made possible through Jesus. I want to share that because I would not want to keep it from anyone. It isn't meant to be a threat - just an example.<< I would never tell anyone that their life experience isn't valid. I'm happy that you've had the peace and joy you've experienced. Perhaps for you, that's a deeply private thing. But for too many others, the assumption is that "I'm happy because of my faith. Other people would be happy with it too. They should adopt my faith." Much of Christianity requires proselytizing and spreading the "good news." Like I've posted before, it's a bit like me saying I have the greatest wife in the world. I don't mean that she's the greatest wife *for me* or that we've grown together to become a wonderful partnership. I literally mean she's the greatest wife in the world, and while I'm happy that other people have good relationships, they'd be a lot better off with my wife. I can't just be content that they have their relationships and their happiness; they *need* what I have, because what I have is a little bit better. This seems to be the approach most religions have. It's not enough that somebody's happy and has a relationship with whomever they perceive God to be that gives them strength and peace. They'd be better off with *my* faith. And it's even less acceptable for someone to be happy believing that there is no god, finding peace no longer trying to do mental gymnastics to explain all the apparent contradictions of God. It's not ok to simply be a humanist and believe in morality for the good of the human race; it needs to be about faith in the supernatural. Again, I'm not accusing you of these beliefs, DlandJB. But they are mighty common, and as we often see in America, they spill over into public policy. Just one example: If I objected to going to war on humanist grounds that I didn't believe in killing my fellow human beings, I'd have a tough time. Most likely, I wouldn't be excused as a conscientious objector. However, if I said I objected on religious grounds, claiming my parents were Quakers or that I was a Jehovah's Witness, I'd have a much easier time.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Some of the things the bible mentions are, by definition, "real" miracles. Walking on water, parting oceans, rising from the dead, making food and wine out of thin air...that kinda stuff.>>>> There were witnesses to these events and writings by non Christians about them too. There have been documented miracles since Biblical times. I have read about them but I can't tell you too much detail, because I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to them in years. Don't need to. But I see what you are saying.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Again, I'm not accusing you of these beliefs, DlandJB. But they are mighty common, and as we often see in America, they spill over into public policy. Just one example: If I objected to going to war on humanist grounds that I didn't believe in killing my fellow human beings, I'd have a tough time. Most likely, I wouldn't be excused as a conscientious objector. However, if I said I objected on religious grounds, claiming my parents were Quakers or that I was a Jehovah's Witness, I'd have a much easier time.>>>> Since we have a volunteer army now, not really an issue. But I know some conscientious objectors from the Vietnam era. One is Jewish. He was able to demonstrate that he had been opposed to war all his life and they let him serve his time in a hospital as an orderly. I think it was often on a case by case basis. It is a command of my faith to share it and to try to open others hearts to the possiblity that there is redemption and that Jesus is how to get there. I'm new at it, and I am, by nature, a bit more low key about it. I don't have to force it on anyone...what I do have to do is try and be an example by how I live. Often I fail, but if I can get someone to consider this way, then I am doing something right. I appreciate ecdc's remarks earlier, because I know we don't see many things the same way. But I do appreciate the general civility of this thread. I'm not going to try and answer to remarks that seem only designed to be provocative, but I'm enjoying the give and take.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Indeed DlandJB, this is one of the many reasons I love LP. In the main we can all engage in civilised debates. I have witnessed a number of miracles over the years, and a lot of inexplicable phenomona. I am not a christian, but I respect many of the teachings. And sweet spirit, I respect you JBstew.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >These are completely inappropriate responses to sincere thoughts and beliefs. I don't share DlandJB's beliefs, but I see no reason to mock them, especially when she's participating in this discussion in good faith (no pun intended). Mock people like her and they go away and we're left with people who think just like us sitting around validating each other. That sounds an awful lot like church to me; I'd rather have intelligent people to discuss these issues with.< I'm sorry Ecdc but I wasn't mocking anyone, these are simple questions to her posting. What is hell on earth, living in a third world country or in the depressed inner big city, being an alcoholic or a drug user, recovering from severe medical conditions, is this purgatory for the living and just a sample of the real thing when we die without the faith? Is hell like Dante's inferno? How do we know for sure what its like.How can anyone who hasn't been there make an assumption? Yes of course it has been written. Many of us have probably made the statement of "being to hell and back" however in this thread we are talking about faith and the word hell is very much a big part of it. I believe that many of the faithful are that way because the fear of "hell" in the afterlife.
Originally Posted By utahjosh johnno52, I'm going to defend Ecdc and DLanJB on this one, too. When DlandJB said "I've been to hell (lower case) and back" she OBVIOUSLY is not meaning an actual location - your response was inappropriate, rude, and now you are just trying to justify it by going on some tangent instead of facing up to your rude post.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Hey johnno, I think you bring up some very interesting questions about hell. If there is a hell, I can think of no better description of it than our world. Here there is all kinds of suffering, although many of us are quite far removed from seeing it day-to-day. But that's the real catch....we have been sold on the idea that this hellish world is actually an okay place. Unless we are ready to free oursleves from every attachment in this world (something that ALL the spiritual sages have preached) we are doomed to go to hell (or stay here). Side note: there is a great book called "The History of Hell" which tackles humanity's evolving notion of hell. It's a fascinating read.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >When DlandJB said "I've been to hell (lower case) and back" she OBVIOUSLY is not meaning an actual location - your response was inappropriate, rude, and now you are just trying to justify it by going on some tangent instead of facing up to your rude post.< Ok seeing that you can read through my questions! Isn't "Hell" used in reference to Religious condemnation? Where is this "hell and back"? Am I rude? is that what you call someone if they question a posting or your faith? The topic states "Why I believe in God" well thats good if you do or don't however this is a discussion and I don't believe I said anything out of order! If you believe in something and you post it, a question of those beliefs does not necessarily mean you are being rude and insulting. When I question a post it could also be done to see if my convictions are incorrect and theirs have solid evidence.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Thanks ED, I must add that if you tell one of these poor, starving and diseased people living in squaller that they will go to hell when they die if they don't take in the word of God, would it make them tremble with fear?
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "Thanks ED, I must add that if you tell one of these poor, starving and diseased people living in squaller that they will go to hell when they die if they don't take in the word of God, would it make them tremble with fear?" I think they would rather take a chance on hell than live the way they're living right now. If there is a god, I think these folks have an advantage over priveleged folks like you and me. Think about it, if they were shown this world and heaven, which one do you think they would they choose? Yet most of us consciously choose this world every day over our own notions of heaven. Heaven appears too boring or too dray for most of our tastes, no matter what we like to tell oursleves. No sex, no family, no alcohol, no Disneyland....to the priveleged folks like us that sounds like hell. To those starving people actually living in hell, I'm sure that sounds like heaven.
Originally Posted By johnno52 This exactly how I feel. Religion had a great start as many of their followers were these kind of people that had nothing left but hope and what they were being told of a better place for them. Today with all this western type wealthy and healthy living we would have to take a few steps back to give up these luxuries and live on an equal footing with all others.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm looking forward to Heaven. I hope I get there, I'm doing all I can and counting on Jesus to get me there. I don't picture heaven as a sit-around-on-a-cloud-all-day place. I picture it more like this world, but without death, hate, disease, and those things that can make this life miserable.
Originally Posted By pecos bill The whole notion of heaven and hell was conceived when people led short, hard, dull and often miserable lives. Education was virtually nonexistent, and superstition was rampant. Heaven was the reward for blind obedience to the church, Hell was the punishment for free thinking. It is perfectly logical to assume that those who fabricated this fiction eventually came to believe it themselves. And please, can we avoid the shoving matches because someone was not politically correct enough in the phrasing of a question?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<The whole notion of heaven and hell was conceived when people led short, hard, dull and often miserable lives.>> I disagree. I believe the whole notion of Heaven and Hell began when God taught Prophets about the purpose of life from the very beginning.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Am I to believe that Christians follow the Old Testament. >Existence after life is not concrete in Judaism and may be portrayed as a state of neutrality, an eternal nothingness ("sheol", often mis-translated as hell), simply non-life.< So how and why was this translated or seen as a place like Dante's inferno?
