Originally Posted By Futurist Jonvn, I skimmed through your post very fast. Naturally, with the post I wrote, I had it coming to me. You and I have been around these boards for a while, and I'm sure you agree that it's best to respect each other's opinion, whether we agree with each other or not. Obviously, we've learned, by now, we are two people with different points of view. We all come from different points of view. That's the beauty of life on planet Earth. My apologies for coming off too strong. If you knew me personally, and actually saw me in person as I wrote last night's post, you would know that while I was definitely being risque with my comments, I had, at the same time, an underlying feeling of "smirk-ish" comedy. And what I have to say to the rest of you, is ....FOR GOD SAKE .... take my statements with a grain of salt. Laugh it off if you think I'm being over the top. I've been posting for almost 2 years now, and I treat the community here like a family within a "Bill Maur: Politically Incorrect" type environment. Go ahead and get your points across, but be ready for a response!!! And, last but not least, laugh with your fellow posters. And with that in mind, I wish you a nice Sunday Jonvn, and to the rest of you, have a good day.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Thanks, Doobie - I'm glad you found this one and I'm glad OrlandoBoi loved DCA like so many of us do. And I hope the opinions of those who formed them after hearing others talk about it or by watching videos of it instead of having actually seen and experienced it will think twice before reflexively slamming it again.
Originally Posted By Buzz Lite-Snack Without reading everyone's responses I'd just like to say in response to the initial post that something may have been hit upon that I hadn't thought about before. That is, the "laid back" feel of DCA and how that relates to California. While I agree that there are problems with DCA that might never be addressed (Like Bear Mountain not being dead center of the park - ain't it the true " big weenie" since it can be seen from blocks away?) I have to say that since DCA opened I've probably spent more time there than at DL. As a SoCal I get burnt on the crowds (I have to sit in traffic jams daily) and knowing there's a mellower place near by I just tend to want to be where all the people aren't. But maybe DCA is sending out a mellow vibe that makes the "C" in DCA somehow relatable to the California lifestyle. Perhaps not. I will say that with so many attractions and "things" closed ("things" as Walt always called most anything within the park) in both parks lately, we've been spending our weekends doing something other than Disney for the better part of this year. What used to be a weekly or bi-weekly journey is now more like a monthly trip, if that. Too many closures, too many PARTIAL re-habs. Too many green walls. Too many things to do in Southern California. -ßuzz -
Originally Posted By crapshoot Many of the old time Imagineers still say that the only way to fix DCA's numerous problems is to simply take it down to grade. "Hey folks, get a real theme idea, get a real budget and use the talent of the real Imagineers. And then, and only then, will you get a park that WE can all be proud of." In other words: Quit looking for reasons to justify a park that just doesn't cut it. Got it? Good!
Originally Posted By jonvn "Many of the old time Imagineers still say that the only way to fix DCA's numerous problems is to simply take it down to grade. " And, gee. There was a lot of political infighting going on about it, too. There isn't just a tiny touch of sour grapes there, eh? Nah, not possible. Making a statement such as the above by these "imagineers" is completely ridiculous and comes from the position of someone who is bitter and interested in seeing a part of their corporation do badly because their ideas were not utilized. Childish and petty come to mind. "Got it? Good!" Yes, I did get it. I get that the people you talk to are emotionally weak individuals who are pathetic in their bashing of a park because they didn't get to play the way they wanted to. They deserve to be fired.
Originally Posted By tangaroa >Yes, I did get it. I get that the >people you talk to are emotionally weak >individuals who are pathetic in their >bashing of a park because they didn't >get to play the way they wanted to. >They deserve to be fired. That's totally childish and out of line. You don't know the people of which crapshoot refers to, and you're only assuming that they're dislike for DCA stems from jealousy. You have no knowledge of these things yet you speak with absolute authority on them. Again you and others here perpetuate this false idea that anyone who dislikes the park only does so because of political motivation. It's just a close-minded attempt to inbalidate any negative opinion about the park - coming from people who will sit here all day claiming to be open minded and tolerent of other's opinions but never showing it.
Originally Posted By Jim in Pasadena CA <Again you and others here perpetuate this false idea that anyone who dislikes the park only does so because of political motivation.> But the flip side is that those who do enjoy DCA, and think it's a fine Disney theme park, are somehow misinformed, naive, or haven't yet visited Tokyo DisneySeas -- so we just don't know any better. Just as irritating....
Originally Posted By jonvn "You don't know the people of which crapshoot refers..." I don't care who it is. If they are speaking like that about a company project to people, then that's enough. I don't care if it's Disney, KMart, or 7 Eleven. This sort of commentary and behavior is disgraceful. It is plainly obvious when someone says something like crapshoot reported that it is has some sort of jealousy-based root cause, PARTICULARLY when there was an internal corporate struggle over this and there has been residual bitterness. I'm not an absolute authority on who said what, but I am on how an employee needs to behave and support what the company is doing or LEAVE. If they can not do that, then they do not belong in their jobs. "Again you and others here perpetuate this false idea that anyone who dislikes the park only does so because of political motivation." Oh brother. No, I don't. But hey, go ahead and make up stuff if you think it will help you. I guess you have to do this because you have no real basis to argue from other than further accusations against people who don't think like you. Either those who don't agree have a "lower standards" or we are "closed-minded" or "intolerant" or some other such thing. Everyone who doesn't agree somehow has to have some sort of mark against them that makes them somehow less a person. You don't like the place? Fine. That's your choice, and your loss. But bringing up unnamed employees to bolster the argument that the place is lousy is first, unprofessional in the extreme of these employees, and two, highly suspcicious in any case due to the reasons mentioned. Who are these unnamed employees, anyway? The ones who spent $100 million on brown paint in TL? The ones who spent EDL into bankruptcy? The ones who don't understand that it is their job to design and build in a manner that the company can actually pay for? I once had an arguement with one of these guys. His comment was "How can you put a price tag on an idea?" Well, that's what their job is. It's what my job is, it's what the job of every person who has to do any sort of thing like that ever was. And if they can't do it, they need to step aside and let someone else take over. And if that's so bothersome to them that they can't do their job without trashing the work of others who can, THAT is what is childish and out of line. And they should not be employed there anymore. Maybe they should go find another company that spends so much on these sorts of projects and gives people such carte blanche. Oh wait...there ISN'T ONE.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Maybe they should go find another company that spends so much on these sorts of projects and gives people such carte blanche. Oh wait...there ISN'T ONE.>> The problem stems from giving a non artist a blank canvas, chances are nobody is going to buy the painting. Take two seperate groups of people, one considered experts in their field and the other who are determined to reinvent the wheel and then give them the same budget to work with. Now which group would you expect to succeed and produce the better project? <<And, gee. There was a lot of political infighting going on about it, too.>> Yes of course their was, but not at the core level of Imagineering. Not by those Imagineers who jump into the trenches everyday feet first and produce wonderful masterpieces that are enjoyed by several generations of guests. These are the ones who got shut out of DCA. And that was the biggest mistake that was made. But I guess many will never want to understand things at that level.
Originally Posted By crapshoot Oh yeah! The biggest irony of them all is that now the "oldtimers" are the ones doing the work in DCA. Seems like the DCA designers, movers and shakers have moved on to greener pastures. GO TEAM!
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh, I understand perfectly, and it still does not matter. Those individuals who speak like what you reported simply are undeserving of their positions. Simple as that. It is unimportant who they are, or what company they work at. To me it is quite obvious that their saying something like "The whole place should be raised" has more to do with their own bitterness and not anything valid. Your explanation as to how they got shut out is further testament to the sour grapes attitude. "We did all this stuff in the past, and they didn't listen to us, and now the park should be raised." That's the message you're relaying to us, and it's a pretty sad one. You have to be able to work within the constraints the company that employs you gives you. If you can't, you aren't doing your job right. Somehow, the people in charge figured it this way, for some reason (EDL? TL?) and that's what has happened. It's hard when a company decides to do things a bit differently, and sometimes some people can't adjust. But putting out semi-public comments like what was said is simply unprofessional, and unworthy of being listened to. If these people do not like the type of work their company is doing, they need to pick up and move someplace that does things more to their liking. See if they can find someplace that gives a blank check to people and is uninterested in how the work is going to be paid for. I don't think they'll find too many of those, and I think they probably know that. It's sour grapes. Ever hear Aesop's story of it? It goes like this: A hungry fox noticed a juicy bunch of grapes growing high on a grapevine. He leaped. He snapped. Drooling, he jumped to reach them, but try as he might, he could not obtain the tasty prize. Disappointed by the fruitless efforts he'd made to get the grapes that day, he said, with a shrug, to comfort himself, "Oh, they were probably sour anyway!" That is what is happening here, and it is pretty obvious.
Originally Posted By OrlandoBoi "HOWEVER, the main stream of Disney theme park attendees, the 'regular' folk who come in on vacation from Anytown USA who have "x" amount of dollars, and "x" amount of days are going to go for the "meat" of an AMUSEMENT PARK. And what do those "normal" folk look for? This isn't hard, .... rides." While I agree futurist, I had a VERY interesting experience on the other Saturday afternoon with a group of tourists. My friend and I were waiting(FORTY FIVE MINUTES!!!!)for the train in Tomorrowland and got talking with a lady who was visiting the resort with her children for a few days. Like my companion, she had not been to DL for about fifteen years. Her level of disgust at the disrepair and shuttered attractions came pouring out once we bagn talking. Add to that that HUGE crowds that were there the Satusday before last and at 6:00pm she and her children had only been on about three attractions. We began talking about our appreciation for DCA and she IMMEDIATELY warmed and said she COULD NOT WAIT to get back there. Her reasons were THE SAME as the ones I posted in my initial post. More relaxed, some stellar attractions, wider walkways, more adult atmosphere. What REALLY surprised me was her comment that she WOULD NOT be back to DL any time in the future. She actually used quite strong expletives. She was NOT happy. It was a REAL eye opener for me. It made me realize that while DL will ALWAYS be that special park and will always hold a dear place in my heart, perhaps people(and indeed, also myself)desire a different kind of experience when enjoying a theme park.
Originally Posted By OrlandoBoi "Yes, I did get it. I get that the people you talk to are emotionally weak individuals who are pathetic in their bashing of a park because they didn't get to play the way they wanted to. They deserve to be fired." Jon-that was a little harsh. In the pirit of truw detente I would ask that you please refrain from making such inflammatory remarks. Not meaning to upset you here in the slightest but in the past, these kinds of comments have made you appear to have more than a casual interest in the dealing and running of the WDC. At this point I really don't care either way whether you do or not. Whichever way you lean however, I really don't feel that such you sway you into such heated comments as above. Please don't be offeneded by these comments of mine but truly, if *I* can relax and see DCA for the fun and themed park it is, we can all try to tone our comments down somewhat. Brad
Originally Posted By OrlandoBoi Damn this place needs an edit function. LOL!!!!!! That should OF COURSE have read, "in the spirit of true detente" Made me look like Elmer Fudd.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer LOL Orlando! I'm really glad you enjoyed DCA this time. I hope you share some of the cool details and touches at DCA that you really liked from time to time.
Originally Posted By dennis-in-ct Hey Brad! I had originally written some comments before the DCA board crashed. Thank God Doobie found a back-up. I personally feel that "park hopping" is a key to enjoying DCA. Those of us who have been used to visiting WDW over the years have grown accustomed to new parks and how to deal with them. The CA audience wasn't used to this sort of thing and the CA management failed miserably in implementing a proper ticketing system. They hurt themselves. I had a GREAT time in DCA and I am glad you caught the "vibe" this time around.
Originally Posted By jonvn I'm not offended. I understand they were harsh. But they were not directed at anyone here at all, if you notice, but at the people who were being quoted. The reason I said what I did is because I feel it is unethical in the extreme to say such things to the public, or to a person that will relay it to the public. Trying to damage a company product for your own personal satisfaction is pretty indecent behavior. And unethical behavior is something I really find bothersome. Trashing a coworker's effort is also a simply terrible thing to do, particularly to a third party. And we have to also look at what Crapshoot was saying they were saying. I've strung the comments together into what seems to be the message from whomever he was speaking about: "I have worked here a long time, and they did not let me work on it or use my ideas. Hence, the result is trash and should be taken to grade." What sort of attitude is that? They didn't do it my way so it's no way and we need to throw everything done out? Come on, that's just outrageous. And it's not even true. The result is quite nice, although it does have a different flavor from the park across the way which I think is absolutely great. I'm not making the claim the park is perfect by any stretch. I would like to have a couple more big attractions, and a couple of areas where there were a few more things explored, but what was built was pretty good. Not as much as I'd personally like, but it's going to grow, and they have used some clever ideas in building the park. Did they all work? Again, maybe not. Could they have spent more? Of course. But is it sufficient for now? Yes, it is. Decidedly so. I have to ask: If you ran a company, and you had a group of employees talking trash like that, what would you likely do? It is true you will never get everyone to be on board for all things, especially in a huge company like Disney is, but once the company decides on a course of action, if you don't agree, then discretion is the watchword. Mouthing off about things in this manner does not look good to an outsider. Suppose you ran a machine shop, and you had 5 employees. One or two of them start talking to outsiders or potential customers about how this person or that person does a lousy job, and therefore the entire company should not be patronized? You think those people should continue to be employed? I don't. My interest is only casual. However, I do get tired of hearing people say I've got low standards or some other thing. I find that offensive, rude and insulting. I also seem to type harsher than how I speak, sometimes. But it is also annoying to have to read that DCA should be raised anytime someone tries to say something good about it. I am very glad you enjoyed the park this time. Very glad. I find it interesting that you found someone in the train station that felt the same way about the park as you did, and it is also much the same way I feel. I appreciate the adult atmosphere, and mourn that some of it fell away to some of the simpler tastes that had trouble with the concept. The wide walkways, the casual elegance, the layered theming are all things that have really gone to making this park a PARK, and not an exercise in guerilla amusement park tactics. It's a shame, a real shame, that both Mondavi and Puck pulled out as they did. I understand it, but I truly enjoyed the deli at the lower level of the winery and feel sadness at its loss. These areas as originally built lent a quiet sophistication to the park in their offerings and quality. Hopefully, in the future, things won't get too typically Disneyfied in this park. Dancing chickens singing songs from cartoons is not what this place needs to be about, and I hope they don't cave in too much regarding that sort of thing. The calls for the Country Bears on GRR are absolutely the wrong type of thing to do. Maybe they went too much in the diretion of a park for adults, to the effect that it jarred some people and they had to pull back a bit on that, but it is still a good idea. My guess is that while they may tone it down a bit, they'll still go with it, but maybe mix it up just a bit more. That's what it looks like they are doing anyhow.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 No offense jon, but I just can't see how you can get so defensive about people saying anyone who likes DCA has lowered their standards, when you turn around and make claims that people who don't like DCA somehow have "simplistic" tastes and "just don't get" the sophistication that is DCA. That's just as insulting as what was being said about people that like DCA.
