Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "We were talking high speed rail, so I just focused on the high speed rail system in the Northeast." Northeast Regional is not that much slower than Acela. The Acela Express is not true high speed rail. While it can reach a top speech of 150 MPH along a short stretch in Rhode Island and Massachusetts, it is much more like a conventional rail service with less stops on most of its route. "in the form of a single scheduled passenger flight per day between Tampa and Orlando. " Why would anyone want to be groped and scanned and treated like a criminal for an 85 mile trip? I assume the high speed rail will have no more security than a quick bag check (and I am opposed to even that much). If airport style security does come to high speed rail, I won't ride it. I don't fly despite my intense desire to travel. "(who would ride the slow ones then?)." The slower trains serve more stations. That's mostly why they are slower, not because of hardware. Northeast Regional trains reach top speeds of 125 MPH.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>While I understand and agree with your overall point, I'm not quite understanding how a high speed service could offer "coach" fares...I mean, all high speed service (in Japan, at least) charges a premium compared to any sort of "local" service you can get (even long distance, which *is* available pretty much wherever the high speed trains run). In other words, a "coach" ticket would necessarily be found on the slower trains, it wouldn't make much sense if the higher speed services offered the same price (who would ride the slow ones then?).<<< In Europe, high speeds have standard class and 1st class services. 1st class includes roomier seats, drinks, a meal, a newspaper, and free wifi
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "That 10.3 Million passenger figure includes many, many different types of trains obviously, from local commuters wedged into packed coaches to the suburbs, to high-speed upscale Acela from city to city" No, it doesn't. That 10 million figure includes Amtrak's Acela Express, Amtrak's Northeast Regional and Amtrak's long distance routes that traverse some portion of the NEC. It does not include commuters. Commuter rail does, in some sense, compete with both Northeast Regional and Acela on some portions of the route. Consider Washington Union Station to Penn Station in Baltimore for a date about two weeks from now. Acela Express: $38, 29-33 minutes Northeast Regional: $11, 38-43 minutes MARC Penn Line: $7, ~1 hour (with over 50 trains to choose from!) Annual ridership on this line is about 5 million. There are just more options in the Northeast depending on how much you want to pay versus how long you are willing to ride. So it's really a matter of under-counting ridership on the Northeast Corridor and comparing it to Florida's paltry 3 million figure.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones One thing I want you to note in my comparison of the three services between Penn Station in Balitmore and Washington Union Station is that the different schedule isn't necessarily because Acela travels any faster than Regional or MARC, it's mostly because it makes fewer stops. Acela is not true high speed rail. Between New York and Washington, it only travels 10 MPH faster than other services, 135 MPH. Comparisons between the two are simply not fair.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***In Europe, high speeds have standard class and 1st class services. 1st class includes roomier seats, drinks, a meal, a newspaper, and free wifi*** Yes, I understand that. Japan has first class cars too on their high speed trains (roomier seats and a few perks). But my main point is, even the cheapest ticket on a high speed train is pricier than a "coach" ticket on a slower train (I'm not sure whether the "first class" line blurs or not depending on your choice of seat, it probably does). I assume the Acela is all "one class"?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"(who would ride the slow ones then?)." The slower trains serve more stations. That's mostly why they are slower, not because of hardware. Northeast Regional trains reach top speeds of 125 MPH*** I'm not certain you are understanding my point. High speed service includes a premium, and if people need to get to a minor station they get off and switch to the slower train for the remainder of the trip. The premium price for high speed still applies (for the amount travelled by high speed train). Are you quite sure about that 125 figure, by the way? That sounds wrong to me (my understanding is that regular old trains are capable of around 90 mph max).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed. In the UK we have three types of trains - commuters that do about 90 mph (though seem slow as they stop everywhere and have to slow down in built up areas), Innercities that can do 125 miles an hour and stop at fewer stations (these cost the same as the commuters when doing the same route). And then true high speed trains that can do 230 MPH do cost more, and have standard class and 1st class carriages. I am not sure how this compares to the US network. For us we used to rarely use the trains in the US because they were expensive and slow (though the ski train to Reno was always cool). But going from Northern Calfornia to Disneyland was a pain as we would use Amtrak to Bakersfield, then transfer to a bus that would take us through the Tehatchapi's, then back on a train to Union station, then a bus to DL. No wonder we didn't use it more than once.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"(who would ride the slow ones then?)." The slower trains serve more stations. That's mostly why they are slower, not because of hardware. Northeast Regional trains reach top speeds of 125 MPH*** To clarify further (and I'm sure I've got the JR rail system in mind here so ymmv), I can understand why one would travel on a slower train for a short distance in order to reach the station they need. Speaking of LONG distance now, for example in Japan it is possible to travel on the fastest train from Tokyo to Osaka (some 340 miles or so), in exactly two hours thirty six minutes on the fastest train at an express surcharge of around $70. If you wanted to skip the express charge, it would cost much less but you could still get there by "normal" train in exactly 9 hours and 27 minutes (which is fine for the leisurely and/or budget conscious).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Exactly X. Then there is also the environmental impact of this. People using high speed trains does far less gamage to the environment than the emissions of planes or the multiple cars to carry people to the same destinations.
Originally Posted By Mr X To clarify even further, the "base fare" remains exactly the same. Even though the slower trains will take over 9 hours and require several connections. This is irrespective of whatever upgrades you decide upon on whichever trains (so conceivably you could pay more on the slower train if you upgrade to first class all the way).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo And for Manfried's benefit, this could lead to lower costs of road maintenance and airport fees, which are funded by tax payers. I recently saw a deal of $39 to fly from Orange Co Ca to Orlando. That frankly is environmentally criminal.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***And then true high speed trains that can do 230 MPH do cost more, and have standard class and 1st class carriages*** At this point I think we are all getting confused on our speed translations here. There is NO high speed train on Earth that runs at 230 MPH, even the fastest brand new Chinese one runs at a brisk 217 (and that blows away all others). Unless we're discussing MagLev (300mph+ in Shanghai), this speed thing is getting out of hand. Are we confusing miles with kilos here?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I drive to DLP from our house, it is 340 miles door to door including a trip on the train under the Channel. we take the car so we can go elsewhere while we were there, and with little ones it is convenient. I can do the run in 7 hours door to door on a good day, 9 on average. Before the kids came on the scene and we were simply Disney obsessed, we would take the Eurostar as two adults this was most convenient. From where we live, it is 5 hours door to door. If we lived in London, this would be my preferred means of travel. And the time includes the security checks (3.5 hours including security checks if already in London - the journey time is just over 2 hours). Plane is our last choice. Despite being environmentally irresponsible, the travel time door to door to include security is 6.5 hours. The least conveneient and most damaging. This is why I am in favour of rail, and increasing taxation on Gas. Didn't anyone learn anything from the BP incident?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo The posted speed on many sites is 230 mph on the newly installed high speed line on Mitsubishi trains. It does 211mph for most of the London to Folkestone Stretch, 60 mph through the tunnel and 230 in France. The original trains did 186, but the newer trains are faster. However you are right X, can do 206mph, but keep them down a bit. Across Europe, the TGV and German trains typically run at 160 MPH. The new prototype Alsom train that I worked on a few years ago has managed 357 mph on their test. Fingers crossed for a go live.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "High speed service includes a premium, and if people need to get to a minor station they get off and switch to the slower train for the remainder of the trip." Yeah, no argument there. But in regard to the Florida project, there would not have been other trains to switch to. It would be the only rail service on the line. I imagine those trains would have had coach and business class services. Your base fare discussion doesn't really apply to Florida. "Are you quite sure about that 125 figure, by the way? That sounds wrong to me (my understanding is that regular old trains are capable of around 90 mph max)." I am sure. The Northeast Corridor is unlike other railroads in the United States. 79 MPH is the maximum speed for most passenger services in the US. Many places, even some in California, see 90 MPH trains, such as in Oceanside and North San Diego County. There is 110 MPH running on the Keystone service in the Northeast as well. But the Northeast Corridor is the only railroad in the US that allows speeds in excess of 110 MPH.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Northeast Regional at 125 MPH: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wy9YDHSpGo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...9YDHSpGo</a> Acela Express at 150 MPH, or so it says: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3NuRk-cxMY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...uRk-cxMY</a> Metrolink train going 90: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBXBA0FANvs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...BA0FANvs</a> It does go 90 through here as measured by my GPS app. And here's Germany's ICE going 186 MPH: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANB-yZIJP6o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...-yZIJP6o</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X Interesting info, thanks. I did not know that. I didn't even think those old beasts were capable of such speeds (safely, at least lol). The REAL question though, is what is the maximum AVERAGE speed (that's what separates the Japan and France and now China lines from all the rest).
Originally Posted By Mr X Sweet vid of that German train...I simply LOVE high speed stuff! Feels like we're getting closer to Star Wars, somehow lol. Here's a good one of my FAVORITE train in Japan, the Nozomi 500 (at or around 300 kph)... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkoz8aEUssQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...z8aEUssQ</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X Watching those American videos, you can clearly see whata craptastic infrastructure situation is going on...a platform area that anyone can just stroll onto the tracks!? Obvious at grade crossings for high speed trains!? "Train approaching! Please remain behind the yellow line!"...yeah, that's some effective safety precautions right there lol.
