Originally Posted By wahooskipper Didn't think I was being a snob so much as I'm not always certain Wikipedia is factual. I know that the press in Florida is reporting that the State "would not be on the hook" for any cost overruns or operational costs". But, I've seen enough government contracts that I am pretty skeptical. I'd like to actually see it in writing. If that is proven to be fact then I would change my opinion on this Scott decision and agree it was a bad decision.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>The Japanese government paid for the lions share of their high speed efforts back in the day, and at a time when everyone thought they could ill afford it. Some thought it might even bring down the country. Turns out that was one of the major factors leading to their economic miracle of the 70's and 80's. And, today the system is the envy of the world. Sometimes it takes guts and determination and a willingness to take some big risks. FDR did something like that with the New Deal, and he's widely considered one of the greatest Presidents' we've ever had (extremist right wingers notwithstanding lol). Just sayin. <<< Word. Agreed 100%. Etc.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Why not? Sorry but this strikes me as some kind of 'cyclopedia snobbery. It's like people that say the same thing about IMDB. I have tested them for VERY obscure film references I know to be true and they are spot on every time!<<< >>>Didn't think I was being a snob so much as I'm not always certain Wikipedia is factual. <<< It's good for a fact checker. And that came from a college professor. That's good enough for me!
Originally Posted By bayrr326 <<I know that the press in Florida is reporting that the State "would not be on the hook" for any cost overruns or operational costs". But, I've seen enough government contracts that I am pretty skeptical. I'd like to actually see it in writing.>> Yes, the companies that were bidding for the contract had agreed to cover cost overruns and pay for operational cost for the first 10-15 years I think. This was a purely political move to kiss the Tea Party's @$$es. It is going to cost florida alot in the long run. There are alot of angry people down here and not just democrats. There were alot of republicans and big businesses who had backed this and they are pissed.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 >>The Japanese government paid for the lions share of their high speed efforts back in the day, and at a time when everyone thought they could ill afford it. Some thought it might even bring down the country. Turns out that was one of the major factors leading to their economic miracle of the 70's and 80's. And, today the system is the envy of the world. Sometimes it takes guts and determination and a willingness to take some big risks. FDR did something like that with the New Deal, and he's widely considered one of the greatest Presidents' we've ever had (extremist right wingers notwithstanding lol).<< It's already been quoted once, but this seriously is so true I have to quote it again. We need someone with big ones to step up and swing for the fences. Re-election be damned. Party politics be damned. Geez, aim for the history books or something instead. Major infrastructure projects done well and with purpose are most often VERY positive for societies. Pride and morale boosters can not be under-estimated. Can you imagine if someone tried to get the National Parks system going today? Thank god there were visionaries back in the day!
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I do agree that it would be a huge task to undertake this, but it's really not the same game changer that the bullet train in Japan was. This isn't some brand new type of train, it's still steel wheels on steel rails. The biggest difference is that it's electric instead of diesel, and that the track is laid out so it can go faster. But other than that, there's really no big difference between what's planned and what's already there. But seeing all the commotion about this really makes me appreciate how tough it must have been to build the Interstate system in the 50's. Today's environmental clearances make it a lot tougher, but I still don't see how any project of that scale could have been easy to accomplish.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***We need someone with big ones to step up and swing for the fences. Re-election be damned. Party politics be damned*** I wouldn't go so far as to claim that President Obama has damned his re-election or his politics (hardly, in fact he hasn't done so to such extremes that it bums me out!), BUT, I do think he has swung for the fences in many ways...it's just that he seems to have next to no support behind him. Not even from his own team. Sadly, I think America will choose to endure another round of pure Republicanism, probably pretty soon. And given the state of the ages and relative health of the Supreme Court, that probably means the court will go even further to the right (they are already as far as the can be, historically speaking), and thus American post-Obama will likely see the most extreme version of Republican policies and right wing idealism it has ever seen. I look forward to watching it, from abroad. Should be a good show. If I were living there, I'd probably be extremely afraid right about now.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But seeing all the commotion about this really makes me appreciate how tough it must have been to build the Interstate system in the 50's*** That was easy. The purpose was military, not civilian.
Originally Posted By Manfried I think everyone on here who wants the project should give all their money towards it. I don't want my hard earned retirement going towards it.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> I miss Crist, can you believe it? And I didn't know you were a Floridian... << This guy makes Charlie Crist look like Abraham Lincoln. And I live in Tallahassee, but have family in Orlando. Keep telling my dad he should work part-time at WDW for the free tickets. But he probably doesn't like the idea of being slave labor for Mickey. Can't say I blame him.
Originally Posted By ExpDave >>Make that 2nd and 3rd last election!"<< I wasn't even referring to Presidential elections, but on that you are right, W was a big mistake, I couldn't believe he got a second term, let alone the first one that he shouldn't have had in the first place. I was referring to this last election when so many right wingers who seem intent on stopping progress and serving their corporate bosses, instead of "the people" got elected. They had made it so clear that they had no intention of co-operating with the President that I thought they would lose because people actually wanted to see things get done in Washington and would vote in people who would work together. Silly me.
Originally Posted By ExpDave >>>American post-Obama will likely see the most extreme version of Republican policies and right wing idealism it has ever seen. I look forward to watching it, from abroad. Should be a good show. If I were living there, I'd probably be extremely afraid right about now.<<< I fear you are right, I'd love to be able to live abroad myself, I don't feel this country is headed in a good direction.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 Besides being careful not to tread too far into politics, I think folks should be careful of attributing our ills to one party or another. I think that both have shown themselves beholden to big business, despite their intentions. I think the system is such a mess that our elected officials can't even realize how beholden they are to big business and lobbyists. I think most elected officials have no connection to the real world that most of us live in. I struggle to decipher if this is the natural progression of a mature and complacent democratic country. Does a revolution need to occur to bring the people and the representatives back in line with one another? Not necessarily a physical of violent revolution. But a huge shift in behavior and expectations. I think a lot of folks believed they were getting a sort of revolution with Obama, but he is unfortunately just as much a part of the machine that is Washington as anyone. It's tough not to be and still get elected.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<The Japanese government paid for the lions share of their high speed efforts back in the day, and at a time when everyone thought they could ill afford it. Some thought it might even bring down the country. Turns out that was one of the major factors leading to their economic miracle of the 70's and 80's. And, today the system is the envy of the world. Sometimes it takes guts and determination and a willingness to take some big risks. FDR did something like that with the New Deal, and he's widely considered one of the greatest Presidents' we've ever had (extremist right wingers notwithstanding lol). Just sayin. >> Yep ... it takes vision and guts too. And our Governor (will resist the urge to discuss exactly how afr things have fallen that a criminal can get elected to the highest office in one of the most populated states), continues to act in contrast with what is needed for Foridians. I was not exactly a huge fan of starting high speed rail in the state by using the Tampa-Orlando corridor. BUT ... there weren't other options given. It was a here or nowhere ... and you have to start somewhere. Most of the dollars were coming from the Feds, overruns by contractors ... and lots of jobs, and let me tell anyone who isn't from this state and only sees it briefly when taking DME to their WDW resort that we are hurting in a way I've just never seen before. ANd things are getting worse. Don't believe the spin. It's worse now in 2011 than it was in 2007 or 2008 or 2009. Scott has no answers whatsoever (not that I expected him to). He wants to create jobs by cutting them. He wants to improve our pathetic educational system by cutting there. And, of course, he wants to improve life for all Floridians by trying to get rid of healthcare improvements. So, you do know what you are getting with him ... But back to the subject at hand. I've spent enough time in Europe and Asia to appreciate and understand the need for it. You'd think with oil companies desperate to have $5 a gallon gas (when our economy can't support $3-plus to start) and drill anywhere they can and with us buying the crude from nations that support our destruction that people might wake up here ... but no, you simply get the 'you can pry my SUV keys from my cold, dead hands'. Honestly, I do wonder if we've jumped the shark as a nation. If our best years are long past and we're living off our reputation, much like Disney. Absolutely nothing gets done in this country anymore. We just sold the NYSE to Germany in an effort to cut controls on derivatives (you know the fake products that don't exist that largely caused the global economic meltdown in '08?) and you hear nothing about it in the media. The sheep just keep going about their business ... it scares the hell out of me. So, Asia and Europe modernize and we sit content with crumbling roads or roads constantly in a state of construction (and in FLA, a right to work state, that often means bringing in labor from other countries and paying them a third of what they'd pay Americans). And people seem OK with this. I don't get it. Not at all. Right now, I have CNN on and they're puking forth the Fed's opinion that the recovery (which doesn't exist) is on 'firmer footing' ... just crazy. The more I travel and return home, the more convinced I am we are a nation in decline. The fact in 2011 we still haven't even begun to have a coordinated high speed rail network (or that someone like SCott can get enough people to elect him) does nothing but make me believe I am right.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Just another point, but I saw an interview with David Stockman (Reagan's former budget director) about the budget mess we are in. Was interesting because he wasn't saying increasing taxes (which we absolutely have to do, esepcially on the wealthy) was necessarily wrong and he, shockingly to me, said what we need to cut is defense spending. That there shouldn't be anything off-limits like say defense spending to get us out of the mess (the interviewer for CNBC made some nervous joke about the military industrial contractors not liking him) ... but when he points out we have 11 giant carrier groups that cost billions and we have no enemies that would engage in that type of warfare anymore, it makes you wonder whether 'we the people' have any say whatsoever in how this country is run ... FWIW, he said Russia (a friend now) has one carrier remaining from 1985 and China (our largest trading partner) has NONE and no intentions of building any ... think he said Brazil and some other nation in S.America each have one. You just sit back and wonder 'why can't we cut defense spending? and 'why can't we cut it in a large way?' Times are tough you tax -- and you tax those who have a disproportionate amount of the wealth. And you cut ... and maybe it's just my now left-leaning crazy beliefs, but when you need to cut spending why is it OK to cut teachers and their huge six-figure salaries? why is it OK to shut libraries? and parks? why is it OK to say 'we can't afford' pensions or let people die when they can be saved? ... yet it isn't OK to stop feeding the defense spending madness (which is helping to destroy us)?
Originally Posted By hopemax > So, Asia and Europe modernize and we sit content with crumbling roads or roads constantly in a state of construction (and in FLA, a right to work state, that often means bringing in labor from other countries and paying them a third of what they'd pay Americans). And people seem OK with this. I don't get it. Not at all. < I don't either. When the levies failed in New Orleans you got a little, "we need to fix our infrastructure problem." When the bridge in Minneapolis collapsed, you got a little, "We need to fix our infrastructure." But these days it's, "We can't afford to build anything because we're sacrificing our children's and grandchildren's futures by leaving them with this massive debt burden." Is leaving them with an infrastructure that is literally falling apart, and incapable of meeting the needs of the 21st or 22nd centuries any better? You have a bunch of countries dumping massive amounts of money into transportation, other countries into communications, other countries into energy. China, all three. Where will that leave the US in the pecking order, in 25 or 50 years? Our lack of interest in pursuing these paths was great before the group actively trying to repeal the 20th century got any sort of power.
Originally Posted By CaptainMichael <<You just sit back and wonder 'why can't we cut defense spending? and 'why can't we cut it in a large way?' Times are tough you tax -- and you tax those who have a disproportionate amount of the wealth. And you cut ... and maybe it's just my now left-leaning crazy beliefs, but when you need to cut spending why is it OK to cut teachers and their huge six-figure salaries? why is it OK to shut libraries? and parks? why is it OK to say 'we can't afford' pensions or let people die when they can be saved? ... yet it isn't OK to stop feeding the defense spending madness (which is helping to destroy us)?>> The fat cats need that military to defend them if or when we ever wise up and revolt. That's the only way things will change. It's amazing how much is wasted on something stupid like our current defense policies.
Originally Posted By CaptainMichael With all of the money our government has wasted in Iraq, we could have had some serious infrastructure improvements across the nation. Not to mention all of the aid we send to Egypt and Israel among others...
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt ^^ Isn't it funny how the same people who scream that we can't afford high speed rail in Florida are the same ones who had no problem starting a senseless war in Iraq? In the end thousand were killend and billions of dollars were spent and we are no safer or prosperous than we were when Saddam was in charge. Politicians like the Florida Governor are liars and crooks pure and simple. He's simply trying to score political points with his party by being anti-Obama and joining the populous Tea Party "cut spending" chorus. Conservatives make me sick.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/17/high-speed-rail-lahood-scott_n_824596.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...596.html</a> WASHINGTON -- Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood is expected to meet with Florida's congressional delegation Thursday afternoon in an effort to circumvent Gov. Rick's Scott's rejection of $2 billion in federal funds for a state high-speed rail project. The meeting, which will take place on Capitol Hill and involve both Republican and Democratic lawmakers, will revolve around a discussion of "whether we can create an entity that can run high-speed rail in Florida and get the state out of the way," an administration official told The Huffington Post. Previously, LaHood called members of the delegation Wednesday to discuss the matter. He's not without GOP support: Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.), chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, has pushed Scott to reconsider the project, stressing that private business may be willing to help the state cover its $280-million piece of the costs. Prospective solutions to the standoff aren't entirely clear, and the administration official said, "It's too soon at this point" for specifics. It's been suggested that the federal government could simply foot the entire bill for the project, rather than requiring Florida to put up matching funds. But if the administration shows a willingness to pick up the full tab, other governors could well follow Scott's script. LaHood's trip to the Hill suggests that the Obama administration is not content to simply leave Florida out of its plans for a national high-speed rail system, but administration officials have offered some tough talk. On Wednesday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney told reporters that the president was willing to spend the $2 billion intended for Florida on other states. Officials in New York, Washington and California quickly requested the money. Now, however, the White House seems to be abandoning that bluff, perhaps because the bipartisan and home-state pressure on Scott to reverse course has been immense. The governor talked with both LaHood and Mica on Wednesday to relay his decision. "This is a huge setback for the state of Florida, our transportation, economic development, and important tourism industry," Mica said in a statement. "I have urged the Governor to reconsider going forward and allow the private sector to assume the risk and any future costs for the project. ... With the federal government assuming 90% of the cost of the project, I am disappointed the private sector will not have an opportunity to even offer innovative proposals to help finance the balance of the costs and to construct and operate this system."
