Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Can you say the same about SM, BTM or Matterhorn?<< All I;m saying is, you have to look at these things in their entirety. Like you said, some rides, even in Fantasyland, could be plunked into another park. But they work as a WHOLE. Is Paradise Pier the very best? Nope. But there definitely are Disney touches throughout. There are little showerheads like people would use to wash off after a swim in the ocean. There's the music loop that is "buzzy" by the Orange Stinger, "bubbly" by Jumpin Jellyfish, like a caliope on the pier. All in all, it works as a Disneyfied amusement pier. Would I personally have chosen that theme? nope. And if I did, personally, I would have set it in a specific time period. But they didn't ask me. ; )
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "Hans, did I **USE** Screamin' in my argument?" I don't know, did you? I stopped reading after about the second line. "And exaclty how did these arguments get weirder?" Weirder in that it seems that people are more concerned about convincing others that they are *right* about their views rather than just stating their opinion about the topic, discussing it, and moving on. We all know where this discussion is headed. And this whole thing about Walt not approving of PP is just plain rediculous. And weird.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^^And I'm not necessarily denying that, but you have to look SOOOO hard in PP to tell yourself you are in a Disney park, it loses any kind of real 'theming' it has. When I walk in Frontierland, Fantasyland, Toontown, even Main Street, it automatically invokes that this is 'something different' and I don't have to peep around a corner or look under something to get that like you do at PP. At DL I simply walk in and I'm *there*. When Hans bought up California Screamin just now, he kinda bought up a good point and one I never dendied. Screamin IS a *Disney* attraction through and through (again, never said it wasn't lol, but I'll leave it alone), but for MOST, I guess it 'hides' itself as unique so well, it looks like just another roller coaster. Again, the theme makes it that, understandable, but you add to the 'blah' queue, the lack of any interesting theming, no story telling elements and etc, people don't look at it AS a Disney type attraction even though super nerds like us knows it is. But, it comes BACK to what I was saying in my first post to you with BTM and Matterhorn. You CAN'T mistake those rides for anything but Disney attractions. Obviously, they are ingrained in us for one, but their elements, how they manage to tell a story, certain time periods they take place and etc. Again, that's CLASSIC Disney. You look at Screamin and yeah, it's unique for what it is, but there is still nothing that sets it apart from alll the other Coasters out there outside of it's mechanics, it doesn't set itself a part from for the average guest and again, I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with that, but you have to admit there is something VERY Disney when you have 3 rollercoasters in DL and one is set in space in the distant future, another during American Goldrush and another in the Swiss Alps. Magic Mountain has about a dozen different coasters now. They all do different things, have different mechanics, but for *me*, as cool and fun as they are, they are basically just wood and steal coasters nothing more. But in DL, one takes you through the cosmos, another whips you through an abandoned town and mountain with an earthquake to boot and another throws you in and out of a mountain avoiding a snow yeti. One is in complete darkness, another through mountainous caverns, another down snowy slopes. You have 3 rollercoasters in one park alone and there is nothing like them not only when compared to each other, but pretty much any place on the planet. And then you go to DCA. A nice, FUN coaster, but sadly, that looks and feels like about a dozen other coasters in California alone, except with a launch. Again, that's cool, it is, but honestly, when I get off, I want to get back to the roller coasters that take me to a different place and time and where is the experience isn't duplicated anywhere else. I love Screamin and YES, I like a lot of DCA, but sadly I CAN get those experiences at a lot of other places and why it just isn't the same. PP is the epitome of that feeling for most I think and why it will just continue to lack for many.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney "Hans, did I **USE** Screamin' in my argument?" <<I don't know, did you? I stopped reading after about the second line.>> Man, it's okay to admit you messed up . I use to have a girlfriend, I did it all the time . But seriously, if you are going to 'stop reading after the second line' but then TRY to counter my argument when you havn't read it through completely, it just makes it look a little more foolish, now doesn't it? Think about it . <<Weirder in that it seems that people are more concerned about convincing others that they are *right* about their views rather than just stating their opinion about the topic, discussing it, and moving on. We all know where this discussion is headed.>> I'm NOT trying to sound mean (but I guess it will) but Hans if you REALLY feel that way, why are you even here?? You DON'T have to respond if you feel it's the 'same ole, same ole, yada, yada, yada' thread. Seriuosly, do you feel it's your 'duty' to respond to all the posts or are you just bored? I just don't get it, you DON'T have to be here in the slightest dude, but then you complain 'the arguments are all the same'. I'm sorry, I just don't see the point. Yes, there are arguments I feel on BOTH sides are a little redundant, but we all KNOW this. But, I still like talking about it. I don't understand what you mean anyway, WHO is saying their opinions are facts? My posts, personnally, are only **my** feelings why PP sucks!!! You disagree, fine, but please, READ why I think it sucks first and disagree before you think just because I think most of the stuff there is pretty generic because, well, it is!! Seriously, how many MOUSE COASTERS have I been on in my life in a different park???? Feel free to disagree as usual, but if you just think this is all a big waste of YOUR time and it's all the same stuff, then man, there are plenty of other threads, subjects, Disney sites and websites out there. Again, I apologize NOW if this sounds overly mean, but I'm just stating the obvious here.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt “I'm NOT trying to sound mean (but I guess it will) but Hans if you REALLY feel that way, why are you even here??†No offense taken. I'm here because, like you, I enjoy Disney parks. I also enjoy commenting on them in this particular forum. Occasionally I feel the need to speak my mind when I see fanatics ranting and raving about what Walt would and would not like. If that frustrates you then so be it. We are all free to express our opinions, don’t you agree?
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^Okay, fair enough . But, I don't really think it's many people here bringing up the 'Walt would've done this' mantra, right? I certainly never do lol. The dude died a long time ago, for all we know, he might've sold off the whole thing 5 years later, got rich and moved to Hawaii, so I have to agree there . But honestly, as far as *I* can tell, its like one person who bought it up or maybe I'm just reading as closely as I should.
Originally Posted By cstephens I did find it interesting that the person who started the thread merely proclaimed that Paradise Pier isn't Disney and made up some stupid conversation without ever actually saying why he/she didn't think it was Disney. Maybe others need a magnifying glass on Paradise Pier to see Disney. I don't. I was there during AP preview days, and as I sat under Screamin' waiting for Eureka, it felt like a Disney home - not Disneyland, but Disney nonetheless. I'm sorry others haven't been able to feel the same thing, but no one is going to make a simple proclamation at me to tell me what I see and feel when I'm there. /cs
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^And no one IS Cstephens. I think the problem is the majority out there feels differently about it then you do and hence, all the supposed changes the area is getting. I'll say it again, we can go back and forth all day until the troops come home, but it's OBVIOUS Disney felt they screwed up if they are spending untold money to completely revamp an area that's only a few years old now. I don't understand when even the SUITS are basically (finally) saying this area, along with others obviously, needs to be executed better, people seem to ignore what others who have issues with it are saying. While I respect that people like it and have no qualms with that, the area was apparently a mistake designed the way it was or nothing would be changed minus a few annual restorations. I never understand why it's just so hard to say there were a lot of problems in this park, like it or not? It kind of shows that even if loyal fans can't admit many of the problems, I can understand how hard it must be for the people who built it in the first place...but that's life.
Originally Posted By cstephens WorldDisney wrote: > And no one IS Cstephens. I think the problem is the majority out there feels differently about it then you do and hence, all the supposed changes the area is getting. So I'm imagining all the people on this thread alone who've made the definitive proclamation that "Paradise Pier is not Disney"? /cs
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^^I just think in THEIR opinion they are saying it's not Disney and expressed it that way, I don't think anyone is telling YOU to feel the same way. (But I have a feeling we are going to go down a line of semantics faster than the Maliboomer drop from this point on. ;D)
Originally Posted By cstephens WorldDisney wrote: > I just think in THEIR opinion they are saying it's not Disney and expressed it that way, I don't think anyone is telling YOU to feel the same way. > (But I have a feeling we are going to go down a line of semantics faster than the Maliboomer drop from this point on. ;D) Ahh, yes, the old semantics argument, usually ruled in favor of those who hated DCA and used against those of us who didn't. (Oh, and for the record, I actually liked DCA more in its first six months/one year of being open than I do now, for the most part.) And you would think that they're simply expressing their opinion. But many of us found out that wasn't usually the case. That's how it was back in 2001, and as far as I can tell, nothing's changed. Those who hated DCA were absolutely telling those of us who didn't share their feelings that we shouldn't just not like DCA, we should in fact hate it, that we were betraying Walt's vision and principals, and they made insulting and degrading remarks about our character and were condescendingly comparing us to little children who'd rather play with the cardboard box than the cool toy that the box comes in. All this because we simply had a different opinion about a theme park. Maybe you weren't around for that, or maybe you don't remember. I certainly do. That's why I rarely discuss anything DCA any more because you still get attacked for expressing anything but venom for it. And these same people continue to visit DCA, which baffles me to no end. Why would you continue to visit something you hate? Whatever. /cs
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Okay, here we go: <<Ahh, yes, the old semantics argument, usually ruled in favor of those who hated DCA and used against those of us who didn't.>> What??? All I'm trying to say is I'm *assuming* the poster was just speaking for his or herself and not say everyone HAS to believe their way, that's all. What does it have to do with trying to 'use' the semantics rule to argue for or against the park??? Look, **I** just said you shouldn't have to think anyway differntly about this stuff. I don't look at message boards as a courtroom. In other words, I'm NOT trying to persuade you to my thinking, I'm just telling you how ***I*** feel about it. Agree, great, if not, fine. But, seriously, it doesn't go beyound that. At this point anyway, DCA has gotten as spiteful as the abortion debate . <<(Oh, and for the record, I actually liked DCA more in its first six months/one year of being open than I do now, for the most part.)>> For the record, me too....then they started the quick fixes, completely ignored what the spirit of the park was ORIGINALLY about for a bunch of character shows and Pixar and THEN my bitterness started....oh and 9 months later after I visited TDS for the first time when it opened ;D. <<And you would think that they're simply expressing their opinion. But many of us found out that wasn't usually the case. That's how it was back in 2001, and as far as I can tell, nothing's changed. Those who hated DCA were absolutely telling those of us who didn't share their feelings that we shouldn't just not like DCA, we should in fact hate it, that we were betraying Walt's vision and principals, and they made insulting and degrading remarks about our character and were condescendingly comparing us to little children who'd rather play with the cardboard box than the cool toy that the box comes in. All this because we simply had a different opinion about a theme park.>> Okay, I got that, but it wasn't EVERYBODY and it certainly wasn't me! I don't know how many times I typed this over the years, but I think I typed this as much as I said DCA sucks lol, but I always said this: 'If you like the park, GREEEAAT! Nothing wrong with that!' I said that over and over again. Hell, I just said it a few posts back lol. I have NEVER personnally called people 'apologists', 'gushers' or whatever. It's funny, a friend of mine, on and OFF the boards, Mr. X, just called me a 'gusher' because I don't have a problem with the stupid Finding Nemo queue lol and it's obvious, I am haaaaardly a 'gusher' . So yeah, people carried away sometimes I agree, but most of the SANE people can separate making their personal distate or dislike for something away from how others feel about it. Trust me, I live in a place and with friends who think the entire 'Disneyland' thing is just really stupid and for kids and a Black man in his 30's shouldn't be into it THAT much...in other words, we all got our battles ;D. As for DCA, I'm here because I think the park SUCKS!! It has MANY problems IMO and frankly with all the issues from the low attendance to quick fixes and discounts have demonstrated that over and over and over again and I just want the park to get BETTER!!! I'm not here to talk about 'why do people like this bad park?' and so on. My issues is how the company keep SCREWING it up and not how people feel about the park. Back in 2001, sure, but now, waaaay beyound that lol. Like it or hate it, there NEEDS to be changes as the attendance and heavy discounting makes it evident and *suppoesedly* they are now that all the people responsible for building the park has been fired or quit . Personnally, its not THAT bad of a park, I acknowledge that too, but it's one of the lowest ranking of the Disney totem pole for me, so that's not good either. But we discuss this stuff a lot and people get carried away on BOTH sides sometimes. Again, it do work both ways. People called me 'bitter', 'negative' and etc because I didn't like the park although I will AGREE it was worse on the other end with the more 'outspoken' posters. <<Maybe you weren't around for that, or maybe you don't remember. I certainly do. That's why I rarely discuss anything DCA any more because you still get attacked for expressing anything but venom for it. And these same people continue to visit DCA, which baffles me to no end. Why would you continue to visit something you hate? Whatever.>> Ooooh yeah, I was around . Back then, I went by 'KoreaDisney' though, but I been here since 2000. If you read my earlier posts on this thread, I refer to the 'DCA wars' of 2001/2002, so yeah, I was there for it ALL. I don't believe the war is over lol, but it's more of a 'cold war' type of affect, no major skirmishes, both sides still throwing their propaganda but no posters being banned, whole threads falling to red admins or just major breakdowns in communication....those were fun ;D. I ALSO don't get why people who truly HATE the park keep visiting it?? I admit, I don't get it myself. Listen, I make my opinions known, for sure, but the last time I even POSTED a thread about the park was 2 YEARS ago. I simply respond to whatever people put up, period. Until a few months ago, I completely stopped typing here. I was ALSO getting bored of us rehashing the same stuff over and over again (but was just posting on LP less in general). So, no 'agenda' here. But, I don't get how some people can make thread after thread of how bad the park is, but still there every week lol. That IS bizarre to me. I'm in America every few years and so yes, I certainly go to DCA when I'm there, but mostly to take my mother . She's the onnnly one in my family who really likes it. We go, spend 2-3 hours and head back to DL...the usual routine . But, when TOT opened, it REALLY made me like it a lot more because I LOVE TOT!!! In fact, THAT is what pushed me to buy an AP for the first time in my life, so you can thank DCA for that lol.
Originally Posted By mstaft I have been to DCA 4 times since it opened in 2001. My wife has never been. Not that she didn't want to go, but it never worked out. By the time of our next trip to California, probably in 3 or 4 years, when she does go, she will (hopefully) see a whole different park than I did in 2001.
Originally Posted By pitapan16 So the idea of a Pier themed land is not out of the question for Disney. It is the execution of this version that was a mistake." -Exactly.
Originally Posted By pitapan16 What are you thoughts on the Boardwalk at Walt Disney World?" <<-I love the Boardwalk Resort at WDW. The place is very anti-Paradise Pier in so many ways. The Boardwalk resort is timeless in it's time-period set. The whole place is so regal and elegant.>> No fair Pitpan, I already used the words, 'regal' and 'elegant' waaay back in post #9. You can't just walk in here 30+ posts later and use the same descriptions!! Take it back....punk!!" -Lol! I had'nt read your post either!
Originally Posted By pitapan16 Hey there! Born and raised in Compton here . I think people will be quite surprised how nice the houses are in Compton now. They look like any area of West L.A., I can assure you. Maybe not Laguna Beach, but certainly something that any average person wouldn't mind living in. I certainly am surprised all the development there anytime I'm back in the states." -Well I guess it's just stereotype, ya know? Compton has a bad rap, I've never been so I'm speculating based on my limited knowledge of true Compton. Sorry =).
Originally Posted By DlandDug I avoided most of the "DCA Sucks" threads for years simply because there was so much irrational discussion. The problem is that the vast majority of the posts were based on visceral reaction. It was either DCA is a dreadful mess that Walt would have hated, or DCA is a fine park that is unjustly disliked by crabby elitists. It is possible to discuss DCA and its failings without resorting to snap judgements, sweeping conclusions, and character asassination. I hope this thread will not fall into any of this.
Originally Posted By pitapan16 >>The design of it, the fact it's a DISNEY character, the music from the film that plays when it spins all says *PROPERTY OF DISNEY* through and through.<< How does Big Thunder Mountain Railroad or the Matterhorn support this theory? I'm just askin'..." -It's in the details. You wont find a coaster so highly themed as Thunder or Matterhorn anywhere else that I can currently think of on the planet outside another Disney park.
Originally Posted By pitapan16 And this whole thing about Walt not approving of PP is just plain rediculous. And weird." -Lol. funny. I actually think walt liked the carnival/circus theme, but not at such low quality and minimal theme as PP.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<-Well I guess it's just stereotype, ya know? Compton has a bad rap, I've never been so I'm speculating based on my limited knowledge of true Compton. Sorry =).>> It's okay, I ordered the homies to stop looking for you now and you should be able to leave your house without any worries. I probably start the car for at least a day though. I just want people to know we aren't all violent thugs and if we have to beat the living daylights out of people to understand that, the world will be a better place.
