Originally Posted By vbdad55 darn, I miss all the good posts before they're gone I will say something and maybe thisis where wahoo is coming from. I think it is hard for many of us non democrats to view the GOP as some of you do because we don't listen to or hear the 'message' as we are way above that kind of crap. We were more sensitive ( at least early on) to some of the same level of attack words used in conjunction to W-- by those on the left...same type of direct messages meant to disparage him and rally the troopps. The difference there is there could be no implied rascism in this.. growing up in one of the most segregated cities in the country and all the issues we had here when I was a youth and going forward I absolutely know the type of close minded hatred some of you mention still exists. It may be worse in Salt Lake City than here - ECDC - as that is scary stuff you recall from your fasmily visit. I guess the best I can explain it is I have seen this type of attitude go from fairly prevalent to more of a fringe nutjob status since the 60's where I live and take some solice in the fact that hopefully people are evolving. Is it gone - no-- never will be. Rascism will never be gone- and that's more than a black-white issue to be sure. But progress has been made. Are there some who oppose the president because he's black- you bet. What I get concerned about is to paint an entire party as following that path as I do not beliee that to be true. Prejudice is a horrid thing- and yet I still believe the reason Hillary didn't go further in the primary was because there are still large numbers of people who aren't ready for a woman president either. It's nuts- but true- and those are across both parties and independents. SO to wrap up - it's not that we don't hear what you're saying-- and not even that those who write 'campaign' type material don't play to that ( and just as well those in Obama's camp will make sure the campaign rhetoric will highlight the same thing in reverse to make some things seem race based even when the're not) - these people are paid to do this crap. There are plenty of Karl Rove devotees on both sides who know how to dig under the skin..I hate it.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 as far as Pat Boone and all that- it is well documented that at that time most of America was not ready for black music to be played to white audiences. This was fact in the 50's and even early 60's--plenty of great documentaries on this. I believe as a nation we have moved many steps forward from that time...at least most people have..but there are some holdouts I am equally sure. but no one party had a hold on those feelings at the time- remember George Wallace was a democrat. Also remember he lost previous gubernatorial elections to other Democrats in Alabama that were more racially charged ( John Patterson) than he was - previous winners endorsed by the Klan. are many of these people GOP there no?- maybe- I couldn't tell you, but my point is the party affiliation had little to do with their viewpoints - they were who they were ( and obviously some still are) was over and above the party they voted for.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>What I get concerned about is to paint an entire party as following that path as I do not beliee that to be true.<< When you have the most listened to radio talker playing "Barack The Magic Negro" and so forth, and few in the GOP daring call him out for that crap, it makes the whole party seem complicit. Remember Glenn Beck saying the president has a "problem with white people"? Bashing the current president by political opponents is not unusual,par for the course. But there's no statesmanlike approach by any of them. It's about "taking the country back," and "stopping the assault on our troops" and so forth. That isn't by some fringe -- that is by the major players hoping to win in 2012.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan <a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2011/0928/Did-Berkeley-s-racist-bake-sale-go-too-far" target="_blank">http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/E...-too-far</a>
Originally Posted By wahooskipper 2oon...I think the folks you identify are the a major players in the party political structure but I don't think they represent the average Republicans anymore than I think Michael Moore represents the average Democrats. Are they the loudes and most visible? Yes. But, the reason for the success of Rush and others is that they appeal to the extremists that have the time to listen to their shows in the middle of the day. I know plenty of Republicans that don't listen to Rush and don't go to Fox for their news. I still believe the Tea Party will either end up being a flash in the pan or will somehow strike out and become a third "major" party because I think there are a number of traditional Republicans that will never identify with the Tea Party.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I continue to hope that that's true, Wahoo. I'm trying to keep in mind that in the primaries, the extremists have more sway than they do once a nominee needs to appeal to more moderates.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I think that has a lot to do with it. As a now registered independent in Florida I can only sit and watch right now. And, it is just an ugly spectacle all the way around. I don't think a sitting President has ever been more "defeatable" (except maybe Carter) yet I don't have much hope for any of the candidates thus far. I had a Republican pollster call me a couple of weeks ago (guess I'm still on some phone lists somewhere) and when I told him I wasn't going to participate in the survey because I changed party affiliation he actually said, "you are one of the smart ones." When your hired phone bank is saying those kinds of things that can't be good.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 Ever since I cut out from my diet shows like My Opinion Is Right Because I'm Talking Louder Than You, I've been a happier person.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I don't think they represent the average Republicans anymore than I think Michael Moore represents the average Democrats.<< If one believes the polls, then yes, I'm afraid they do represent the average Republicans. (And if one does not believe the polls, than one is probably a Tea Partier anyway.) >>I'm trying to keep in mind that in the primaries, the extremists have more sway than they do once a nominee needs to appeal to more moderates.<< You betcha. ;-)
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>God help us if some nut-job decides that the only way to stop the perceived "attack" from Obama is to strike first.<< The Secret Service's job of protecting whoever is the President cannot be an easy one, even with a popular president. I can only imagine how many notches this task has been kicked up with protecting President Obama and his family.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I will say something and maybe thisis where wahoo is coming from. I think it is hard for many of us non democrats to view the GOP as some of you do because we don't listen to or hear the 'message' as we are way above that kind of crap<< Actually VB, it was precisely because of the 'message' that I left the GOP and became an independent.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>but no one party had a hold on those feelings at the time- remember George Wallace was a democrat. Also remember he lost previous gubernatorial elections to other Democrats in Alabama that were more racially charged ( John Patterson) than he was - previous winners endorsed by the Klan.<< FWIW, most of those Dixiecrats are now Republicans.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I think that has a lot to do with it. As a now registered independent in Florida I can only sit and watch right now. And, it is just an ugly spectacle all the way around. I don't think a sitting President has ever been more "defeatable" (except maybe Carter) yet I don't have much hope for any of the candidates thus far.<< Agreed. Nov 2012 should be a slam dunk for the GOP, and their front runners ate Bible Thumpers who will scare away the moderated and a Mormon that the Protestant Fundies won't vote for. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Of course what is most interesting is what this all says about the GOP. It has been sequestered by the Protestant Fundamentalists while it caters to the super rich. Where does that leave everyone else? As mediocre as Obama has been there's no way in Hades I'd vote for Perry, Bachmann or Palin and as many of you know I'm a pretty conservative kind of guy. As for Romney, he's a pawn of the super rich. He'll make sure the jobs offshoring machine continues uninterrupted and will protect the rich's tax cuts, so he's out as well.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Q: And how are you going to vote? A: I'm a hold-your-nose Obama voter. I think we're going to be a big part of his constituency in 2012.<< - Ken Jennings, Jeopardy champion <a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2093316,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.time.com/time/magaz...,00.html</a>
Originally Posted By vbdad55 "I continue to hope that that's true, Wahoo. I'm trying to keep in mind that in the primaries, the extremists have more sway than they do once a nominee needs to appeal to more moderates." I also think wahoo is dead on-- or maybe I am sheltered here in themidlands from the kooks-- who knows any more. But none of the people you mention have a lot of appeal here... now the other thing to remember for all of us..in times of economic duress, extremists get their message listened to but desparate people more than they normally would. History is full of this happening
Originally Posted By vbdad55 "Actually VB, it was precisely because of the 'message' that I left the GOP and became an independent." although I don't believe the message is from what I perceive as GOP core- the party is such a freakin' mess right now it's why I too am no longer calling myself a republican..maybe the idiots have taken over
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>now the other thing to remember for all of us..in times of economic duress, extremists get their message listened to by desparate people more than they normally would. History is full of this happening<< That's true. And people are always eager for very simple solutions to very complex problems. That never really works.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 "As mediocre as Obama has been there's no way in Hades I'd vote for Perry, Bachmann or Palin and as many of you know I'm a pretty conservative kind of guy. As for Romney, he's a pawn of the super rich. He'll make sure the jobs offshoring machine continues uninterrupted and will protect the rich's tax cuts, so he's out as well. " you and I are in the same camp-- as I truly believe millions and millions of moderates are. We may lean conservative but not to where the party representatives are at..
Originally Posted By vbdad55 it's also why I have zero hope for the economy to even somewhat turn around for at least 5 more years....
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>it's also why I have zero hope for the economy to even somewhat turn around for at least 5 more years....<< 30+ years of damage takes time to undo. Even longer with mediocre leadership. The status quo: 400K per week applying for unemployment, 10% U3 unemployment (don't ask about the U6 index, it's downright scary), 50% of the workforce earning less than $500 per week, sagging housing prices and auto sales at record lows are all part of the "new normal". To be able hang onto a middle class lifestyle you will need either an advanced technical degree or be a member of the managerial class.
