Originally Posted By cmpaley >>While his comments are consistent with mainstream conservative Christian doctrine, they are simply wrong in its application to modern news. << No they're not...unless you mean fundamentalists only. I don't think many evangelicals or orthodox Catholics would agree with anything this heretic has to say.
Originally Posted By woody "No they're not...unless you mean fundamentalists only. I don't think many evangelicals or orthodox Catholics would agree with anything this heretic has to say." No one has called him a heretic. There's no way to respond to your ridiculous post. You're no better. I already explained why his reasoning has failed, but that doesn't mean they are out of the mainstream of Christian theology.
Originally Posted By woody I must make on comment. Lately, the critics of conservatives and Christians have a strange habit. It is their ability to overreach. Pat Robertson said some very dumb things. They also sound un-Christian, but while is a fool, he is no dummy. It doesn't help your case to say equally dumb things like calling him a heretic.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I already explained why his reasoning has failed, but that doesn't mean they are out of the mainstream of Christian theology.>> The world has far more Christians who are Catholics than any other religion. That DOES put Protestant fundamentalism out of the mainstream whether you like it or not.
Originally Posted By gadzuux For once, I agree with woody. As repulsive as robertson's comments are, I too think they're more or less in line with the thinking of contemporary christian leadership.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Well let's look at this. Bush is by most accounts a leader within the evangelical christian community. And his first priority was to remove saddam from power - and he didn't much care if saddam was dead or alive. Robertson's comments that are causing so much controversy concern killing foreign leaders that are perceived as being enemies of fundamental christian thinking. Parallel lines.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <And his first priority was to remove saddam from power - and he didn't much care if saddam was dead or alive.> It was hardly his first priority. Let's look at some things he did before removing Saddam: 1) Pushed "No Child Left Behind" 2) Pushed tax cuts 3) Overthrew the Taliban 4) Signed McCain-Feingold 5) Encouraged "Faith-based" initiatives 6) Read "My Pet Goat"
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Gadzuux, please don't confuse conservative, evangelical Christianity with all Christians. And don't confuse the types of things that Robertson and Bush espouse as representative as Christian leadership as a whole. People like Robertson damage the faith, since they drown out the more reasonable and moderate voices of people like Rowan Williams (the Archbishop of Canterbury) and Rev. Jim Wallis.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"No they're not...unless you mean fundamentalists only. I don't think many evangelicals or orthodox Catholics would agree with anything this heretic has to say." No one has called him a heretic.<< His faulty eschatological beliefs about a "rapture" and a seven year tribulation are heretical in themselves, making him a heretic.
Originally Posted By woody "His faulty eschatological beliefs about a "rapture" and a seven year tribulation are heretical in themselves, making him a heretic." What about Catholic beliefs about purgatory and the focus on Mary? Pat Robertson said many boneheaded things about politics. He's no different than Jesse Jackson and Rev. Sharpton at times, yet they are still quite active in politics. It's funny how the Liberals are completely safe to carry on their loony tunes activities, but Robertson has managed to damage his credibility for good reason.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer I think most of the left views Jackson and Sharpton in the same way that most of the right views Robertson or Falwell.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"His faulty eschatological beliefs about a "rapture" and a seven year tribulation are heretical in themselves, making him a heretic." What about Catholic beliefs about purgatory and the focus on Mary?<< Purgatory is merely the final sanctification that takes place before going to heaven. Surely you don't believe that people who die in an imperfect state will be taken to heaven without having their sanctification completed by God? And everything about Mary is in relation to her Son. All her titles and all the teachings having to do with her points to Christ. But this notion of a "rapture" and seven year tribulation...those are all novelties invented by fundamentalists and were unheard of until the late 1800's. The long standing tradition of the Church and most Protestant sects is in line with this line from the Nicene Creed: "And He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end."
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"His faulty eschatological beliefs about a "rapture" and a seven year tribulation are heretical in themselves, making him a heretic." What about Catholic beliefs about purgatory and the focus on Mary?<< Purgatory is merely the final sanctification that takes place before going to heaven. Surely you don't believe that people who die in an imperfect state will be taken to heaven without having their sanctification completed by God? And everything about Mary is in relation to her Son. All her titles and all the teachings having to do with her points to Christ. But this notion of a "rapture" and seven year tribulation...those are all novelties invented by fundamentalists and were unheard of until the late 1800's. The long standing tradition of the Church and most Protestant sects is in line with this line from the Nicene Creed: "And He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end."
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>I think most of the left views Jackson and Sharpton in the same way that most of the right views Robertson or Falwell.<< I think you're mostly right. The rabid right, however, does seem to be more beholdened to their extremists.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Surely you don't believe that people who die in an imperfect state will be taken to heaven without having their sanctification completed by God?<< Isn't that what Easter is all about? There's no scriptural statement that Purgatory exists, after all - it's a doctrine that has been inferred. Just because it was inferred 1500 years ago doesn't mean it is any more or less true than millenial doctrines.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <The rabid right, however, does seem to be more beholdened to their extremists.> Uh, wouldn't the rabid right be the extremists?
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>Surely you don't believe that people who die in an imperfect state will be taken to heaven without having their sanctification completed by God?<< Isn't that what Easter is all about? There's no scriptural statement that Purgatory exists, after all - it's a doctrine that has been inferred. Just because it was inferred 1500 years ago doesn't mean it is any more or less true than millenial doctrines.<< Well, considering that "no unclean thing" will be in heaven, it stands to reason that there's something that happens between death and entry into heaven. Catholics, who believe that Apostolic Tradition acts on par with the Sacred Scripture, call it purgatory and say that there will be come pain, Protestants don't agree with the pain part. It's all done by God through Christ's merits, so it's absolutely related to the Passion and Resurrection. There's nothing in Apostolic Tradition or Sacred Scripture that implies much of what fundamentalists teach about the One and A Halfth and Second Comings of Our Lord. Instead, the Nicene Creed sums it up best...just one Second Coming...and of course, He is with us always in the Sacrifice of the Mass. But we're digressing here.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Well, considering that "no unclean thing" will be in heaven, it stands to reason that there's something that happens between death and entry into heaven.<< Digress away. I think it also stands to reason that our entry into Heaven is what cleanses us completely rather than having to wait in a celestial Ellis Island. Especially since Scripture doesn't say anything about an after-death cleansing period.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Post 32 Tom--I don't think it's fair to lump Al with Jackson and Falwell with Robertson. I have great respect for Al and Rev. Jerry but NONE for Jackson and only modicum for Pat.
