Originally Posted By ChurroMonster I wouldn't shorten the PM track due to shortened attention spans but rather to free up a little room in the north side of TL for something new.
Originally Posted By Futurist I think I understand you Tang. While you are not for an oversaturation of toon related attractions ... you feel the only way today's Disney is going to approve any new attraction (Peoplemover, etc) is to push their animated properties no matter what. But now that there have been major changes in Disney Corporate with the arrival of PIXAR, along with Lassetter bringing in his 1970s DL career experiences into the mix........ I wouldn't doubt they are taking this unique situation with this track, and it's long celebrated history .... and try to work out some balance. And manage not to tip this into Toonmorrowland. You know ... HKDL and WDW's Tomorrowland seem to be pushing themselves in that direction. But for the crown jewel 1955 original ....... I certainly hope the newer guys in corporate keep this Tomorrowland faithful to Walt's founding principles. >>A PeopleMover ride with no characters has no chance to generate any revenue - let alone pay for itself. That's why the old one was closed. << No. The Peoplemover closed to make room for Rocket Rods. That's why it closed. And had the "Tomorrowland:2055" renovation been the chosen plan instead, just a few short years earlier, Peoplemover would be with us today. As it was drawn into the master plan. But the mid 90s was a turning point, as a push for XXXtreme thrills was pushing it's way into theme parks, including Disney. Not mass marketing plans to bang our heads with heavy toons ... But a GM Rocket Rods XP with it touting it's tag line, "Fastest ride in Disneyland". Outdoing the 28mph Space Mountain by 4 more mph. And you know not every project Disney does revolves around the almighty question - Will it make money? As you can see with things such as King Triton's Fountain, Snow White's Grotto, over the top renovations: Tiki Room, money spent on returning Space Mountain's and 'it's a small world's' white paint finish, etc. But I think you know that. You're trying to remind us the way Disney revolves (and has banged and brainwashed our minds) with (mostly) every single project they greenlight. But we've seen in the past (minus the Pressler/Harris years) .... the way to a successful Disneyland entails spending money sometimes to support aesthetics and infrastructures that do not *directly* get their money back. It's more indirect. To me the Peoplemover is more than just a ride. It's *aesthetics*, it's *infrustructure* that is integral to an entire land that is still in a handicapped state. And lastly ... I will never agree that "the money should just go to a different brand new attraction"......... because with that in mind, it means letting the track rout for God know how many more years .... and it's a terrible large sore thumb that needs to be tended to now!
Originally Posted By Kayoss <<You know that track is not capable of handling anything beyond the 6mph speed of the '67 Peoplemover. A 40 year old track (30, through the Space Mt. complex). No way! We all have been through this discussion before.>> Actually, although the track probably does need a few additional supports added... it could handle a high-speed attraction using the test-track-like track they already have. They simply need to spend the cash to bank the curves (which was supposed to be done in the first place.) Personally, I'd be surprised if an attraction did NOT appear in it's place.. I'm pleasantly certain that something is indeed brewing for that track... although just what it's going to be is certainly a well-guarded secret. They've just finished an absolutely great re-do of Tommorowland Terrace and adding that well-designed new store. I would find it hard to believe they plan on letting that track sit for too much longer... they've certainly made efforts to make sure it WASN'T destroyed in everything new that's sprung up around it. But it will require money that just isn't in the budget right now with Nemo taking up everything. My guess is that by the time Nemo opens we'll know a lot more about what will eventually go up on that track. Here's the things we do know: 1) The test-track-style track remains... and the infustructure has been maintained through the building of both Buzz and Nemo. 2) Although rusting, the track rails aren't beyond repair (they're pretty thick steel). But they will need some sanding and fixing up (like Nemo). 3) The old PeopleMover CAN'T return, because the infustructure the tire-based system ran on is no longer there. As others have said, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to open a new slow ride... it's much more likely for them to just spend the dang money and re-open a Rocket Rods type attraction WITHOUT the cuts that made the first one fail in the first place. Perhaps they could even build a new show building around the area of the track that passes over the sub lagoon. There's lots of things that could be done, and imagination is limitless here. But as for bringing back a slow ride on fairly recently-installed track rails designed for a fast ride, I just think that's seriously unlikely. 4) I love the Peoplemover and agree with everyone that's its sad that nothing is up there right now. But I think the right decision is to leave the track there until they have the cash to add a seriously kick-butt tesk-track style attraction to Disneyland. I'd rather wait for that then relieve my memories of the park's past. My conclusion: The track was changed for a high speed ride, and only failed because they didn't complete the job. It makes even less sense to rip out all that new rail and install a system for a slow ride. So, like it or not, outside of totally tearing out the track, the only thing that makes sense is to retrofit, modify, and improve the existing track to build a fun, mildly thrilling ride (with an all-new name) that will be worth the substantial investment it would take.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 I just want a new ride on those tracks regardless of what it is...as long as its not another PIXAR tie in!
Originally Posted By DlandDug Banking the track is not the only solution to the speed issue. The speed of the new attraction (as well as the heavier weight of the new vehicles) also created massive problems for the infrastructure of the TL show buildings. As the cars barreled along, stress traveled through every connection to every building. Cracks appeared, and were in constant repair, at least onstage. Backstage, there were apparently some pretty badly deteriorated areas. I believe that a new attraction, utilizing the ride system installed for TL98 could be placed on these tracks. There's no reason it has to travel fast to maintain interest.
Originally Posted By oneyepete Would something like the "tilt-a-whirl" ride work on there? When it went fast it would give you the g-force as you were whip around and could spin independantly. Stupid idea eh?
Originally Posted By wonderingalice ^^Not stupid if you don't mind my flinging vomit onto the crowd below (and ya'll thought kids spitting was bad! ;-) *LOL
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Perhaps a slow, newly designed PM with some sort of interactive element? Think the end of Horizons where you "voted" on a keypad... install something like that and have it relate to what you see inside the show buildings. Or install cars that pivot via joystick (like Buzz) so you can pick your view of TL constantly. Thinking outside the box a little, there's a lot they could do.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I never really liked the rockets after they were moved to the ground, its just not as fun anymore since your not as high up > The last time I rode the Astro Orbiter, I realized this was only half the problem. Yes, it was so much better up high where it was. But it wasn't just the height. Half the problem now is the location. Before, you took off in a rocket and got a view of... the Land of Tomorrow. Perfect. Now, you take off in a rocket and only get that Land of Tomorrow view (lower, of course, so not as good) for half of your circumference. For the other half, you see... the castle, the hub planters, and the Plaza Inn. That's just wrong. Subconsciously, I really think that works on you, and makes the experience not what it used to be. I couldn't put my finger on it for a while, and I thought it was just the height. It's not. And, of course, the lower height does make it not as much pure fun. Move 'em back!!
Originally Posted By knoxvelour <I never really liked the rockets after they were moved to the ground, its just not as fun anymore since your not as high up > Isn't the ride itself actually lower than the ground surrounding it? Been a little while, but I seem to recall it being somewhat lower.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Yeah, to add insult to injury, it's sunk into the ground a few feet. And not only is it wrong that you can see the Plaza Inn when you're riding the rockets, it's wrong that such a prominent spinner is visible from the Plaza Inn, somehow. Move 'em back!!
Originally Posted By tangaroa >[Y]ou feel the only way today's Disney is >going to approve any new attraction >is to push their animated properties [...] >But now that there have been major changes >in Disney Corporate with the arrival of >PIXAR From where I sit the relationship with Pixar seems to be the problem, not the cure. Every concept for a new ride I've heard rumors for have ALL been pixar related. >I certainly hope the newer guys in >corporate keep this Tomorrowland >faithful to Walt's founding principles. Tomorrowland has long strayed from WAlt's original vision for the land. If they stayed true to Walt's vision, Tomorrowland would be one big Innoventions. Rides like Star Tours and Buzz wouldn't be there - nor would HISTA or Autopia. But those rides are all pretty popular. >No. The Peoplemover closed to make room >for Rocket Rods. That was my point exactly - the PeopleMover was closed to make way for a ride that would generate more revenue. Rocket Rods was designed to be the high speed thrill ride centerpiece to the new Tomorrowland. It was seen as a ride that would draw people to the park - and heck it worked just fine in that regard for a good two years. >But the mid 90s was a turning point, as >a push for XXXtreme thrills was pushing >it's way into theme parks, including >Disney. What's changed? It's still that way today. Here's the shocking part: When Rocket Rods opened there were a lot of teenagers who absolutely LOVED that ride, much to the chagrin of the adults on the Disney boards at the time. And if that's any sample of the general populace - that means there is a huge demographic of kids out there that a) don't remember the peoplemover at all and b) don't have any interest in a slow ride. Those kids were all 14 and 15 when the Rocket Rods debuted 8 years ago. That means they are in their 20's now - making their own money and making their own choices as to where to go on vacation. Disney knows this. That's why they're taking strides in making Disneyland more relevant for today's audiences. >And you know not every project Disney >does revolves around the almighty >question - Will it make money? As you >can see with things such as... There is a difference between aesthetics and a ride. If the PeopleMover could be brought back and replaced as casually as painting a building, I might be more inclined to agree with you. Unfortunately, that's not the case, and rebuilding the PeopleMover would be a huge expense that would limit future attraction prospects. >To me the Peoplemover is more than just >a ride. It's *aesthetics*, it's >*infrustructure* that is integral to an >entire land that is still in a >handicapped state. Tomorrowland is fine. It's in much better shape than Frontierland anyway. The place is always crowded and busy and buzzing with people. When the new Sub Ride opens it will be just as popular as ever. A new People Mover ride won't be necessary for many many years - and by that time I'd hope they were looking into replacing Star Tours instead. And as a personal rather than logical matter - that's my biggest concern with regard to bringing back the PeopleMover. All said and told, the PeopleMover was a showcase of technology - but it provided the same experience as a carnival train ride. And I'd like to think that Disney in the 21st century is more about theatrical attractions and experiences than carnival kiddie rides.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORGOCH: Heck, Futurist! Ya sure ain't tauntin' me none! I ain't the one who's been spendin' most a her sorry life stalkin' the day-lights outta ya. If'n ya knew what was good fer ya, though, ya'd go back inta hidin'. Unless ya got a death wish er somethin' sim'lar, ya don't wanna' draw Orwen's attention much. No tellin' what the ol' fat bat's got cooked up in her cracked cauldron fer ya...
Originally Posted By MGuttag First, although the TTA at WDW and the Peoplemover at Disneyland may have shared the same name once, they use entirely different propulsion systems. TTA used spinning tires in the track propelling a paddle (the Omnimover system of Inner Space and the Haunted Mansion grew out of this system). In contrast, the TTA uses a linear induction motor propulsion system (basically involving flipping the polarity of magnets in the track that interact with magnets in the car to alternately push and pull the car forward). <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrowland_Transit_Authority" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T omorrowland_Transit_Authority</a> Believe it or not, a linear induction propulsion system can drive a ride car quite fast. In fact, Superman the Escape at Magic Mountain uses linear induction motors to accelerate its cars to 100 mph in 7 seconds. California Screamin' also uses linear induction motors to accelerate its cars. So I'm guessing that Disneyland's decision to go with Rocket Rods instead of the TTA to replace Disneyland's Peoplemover had very little to do with speed. Theoretically, if you had the right track layout, you could probably get the TTA up to 100 mph. Also, regardingly the reliability of the TTA, up until last year, I had visited WDW for 8 years straight, and I can't ever remember a major ride breakdown or rehabilitation period for the TTA. I also believe that the TTA has a massive ride capacity of over 2000 people per hour. However, a big difference between the track for the TTA and the Peoplemover at Disneyland is that the TTA track is basically flat while the Peoplemover track goes up and down grades. So I wonder if to put the TTA system in at Disneyland would require re-doing the track to make it level (possibly the reason Disneyland went with Rocket Rods in 1996). The TTA is my girlfriend's favorite ride at any Disney park and is always a wonderful way to sight-see around Tomorrowland while taking a load off my feet.
Originally Posted By Clotho "Personally, I would love to see a spiffy new rendition of TL67' put in place. When I was a kid there was so much movement and energy in TL, between the glimmering white facades, and the bright colors of the Peoplemover, the Monorail and the Skyway, you were totally drawn to TL. Tommorrowland hasn't been that exciting since. IMO" This completely mirrors my thoughts. A retro-future is the only thing that will be timeless, and kitch is a great way to instill that youthful style of color and texture. Obviously Disney has clued into that by bringing back the original Tomorrowland Terrace. I don't see them making the centerpiece of the land a different style than the rest of the land, so I feel this is a sign of things to come. Also, an addition of a ride back on the track (Peoplemover or not, though I would love the former) would coincide beautifully with the new Nemo ride. I know one of my favorite parts of the Peoplemover was the leg that went over the lagoon, getting a bird's-eye view of the attraction!
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "However, a big difference between the track for the TTA and the Peoplemover at Disneyland is that the TTA track is basically flat while the Peoplemover track goes up and down grades. So I wonder if to put the TTA system in at Disneyland would require re-doing the track to make it level (possibly the reason Disneyland went with Rocket Rods in 1996)." But, as you said, Screamin' also uses LIM's. And the second lift hill, where the train slowly rises up the hill (like a real chain lift) is also done with LIM's. I'm not sure how difficult it is to maintain, or the ammount of stuff under the cars that might prohibit the use on a smaller scale, but it is possible for LIM's to be used on inclines, and be exposed to weather (as opposed to the entirely covered track in Florida.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>From where I sit the relationship with Pixar seems to be the problem, not the cure. Every concept for a new ride I've heard rumors for have ALL been pixar related. << Rumors? I'd like to hear about these rumors where EVERY new attraction concept is ALL related to a Pixar character. And if they will ever get the greenlight which no one knows for sure. From where I sit ... I see a man - John Lassetter, who now has influence over what projects get piped into WDI. Call it wishful thinking ... but Lassetter was a Disneyland employee FIRST, and a creative force for Pixar SECOND. With his career roots in Disneyland .. and NOW an active force looking over it ...... I feel he is a man who is going to consider everything that goes into Disneyland with Care, and a Conscience. >>Tomorrowland has long strayed from WAlt's original vision for the land. << Well, that did start with America Sings in 1974 ... so does that mean just throw in the towel forever .. and never try? >>If they stayed true to Walt's vision, Tomorrowland would be one big Innoventions.<< We don't know that for sure. I think there's more imagination in the world, than some people realize. >>Rides like Star Tours and Buzz wouldn't be there - nor would HISTA or Autopia. But those rides are all pretty popular.<< Well .. to be fair .. we can't talk about those rides in the same breath as the Peoplemover. Of that list .. perhaps we could use the Autopia for comparison. Both transportation attractions. And sure the Autopia is going to *seem* more popular due to it's lower capacity to Peoplemover's 4,480 people per hour. >>What's changed? It's still that way today<< mmm ...... Take another look Tang. Pooh, Buzz Lightyear, Monsters Inc., the subs next year. Everything that has come after Rocket Rods in '98 have all been MORE FAMILY oriented attractions. With those attractions .. there's the proof right there ... that they are realizing these are the kinds of attractions that people come for! >>When Rocket Rods opened there were a lot of teenagers who absolutely LOVED that ride, much to the chagrin of the adults on the Disney boards at the time. And if that's any sample of the general populace - that means there is a huge demographic of kids out there that a) don't remember the peoplemover at all and b) don't have any interest in a slow ride. Those kids were all 14 and 15 when the Rocket Rods debuted 8 years ago. << So the only demograph that matters anymore are those between 12-20? (Hence, Pooh, Buzz, Monsters Inc., Nemo Subs) >>and rebuilding the PeopleMover would be a huge expense that would limit future attraction prospects. << Oh that's right! Disney is so straddled for cash. The behemoth corporation it is that had no problem dumping 900 million into go.com just for starters. >>Tomorrowland is fine. ...The place is always crowded and busy and buzzing with people. When the new Sub Ride opens it will be just as popular as ever. << Soooo .. if there's any other work that needs to be done .. ehhhh, forget it! No one will notice, no one will care ... ehhh, we get the crowds ANYWAY. A wonderful way to run a company! >>A new People Mover ride won't be necessary for many many years - and by that time I'd hope they were looking into replacing Star Tours instead.<< I think that is going to happen, ANYWAY. I think the problem had more to do with Lucas' relationship to the co. when Eisner was running it ... than money. You look at projects individually ... as if they are so incredibly hard to do. You know .... there are times where multiple rides were worked on at the same time. They call'em Land Overhauls, or Renovations. Like the one in 1967. And the ill-fated one in 1998. 1967 brought in 6 attractions. '98 4 attractions. Not to mention Fantasyland's renovation in '83 with multiple attractions. >>All said and told, the PeopleMover was a showcase of technology - but it provided the same experience as a carnival train ride.<< You know, in one respect, that's true. But like I just said - just one respect. It was so much more. Trains are generally ground level. This one rising high above people's head. As people would look up .. as the future is about aspiring "higher". Not just metoraphically speaking ... but litterally as well. That's the beauty of so many futuristic overhead systems portrayed in film, and in some other theme parks. For those systems executed with an artistic flaire ..... It's truly an awe-inspiring sight that this country is largely not into yet. Yet ... true carnival rides (lets take a train for instance) ... are somewhat mundane. They generally have a locomotive .. that take it's back to a look when steam engines were invented around 1840. The Peoplemover, though the same in principle, ... is really in so many other respects .. a different experience. >>And I'd like to think that Disney in the 21st century is more about theatrical attractions and experiences than carnival kiddie rides. << I understand you. I feel that way myself when it came to the Motor Boat Cruise - yuck! Among other *quaint* rides of the past that eventually bit the dust. HOWEVER, .... We have a track that has been a terrible eyesore for six years. .... A faster ride will entail major work in just about every building in Tomorrowland .. as the track passes through just about all of them .. and would constitute a massive demolition like the one they did in 1966. ...... And all the indicators are showing that if Tomorrowland has another serious renovation like the one in '67 ... us 30/40somethings won't be seeing it until our first social security checks. Right now .. a fully operating and rejuvinated '67 Tomorrowland with a tiny 21st Century "zing" will help along for the next 10 or so years. But if you think leaving the track abandoned for another 10 or 20 years is cool .. in favor of more "show" attractions ... then I'd say Disney's priorities are just as totally screwed up .. and the newer crew in Burbank are no better than the previous one.
Originally Posted By danyoung After reading through 77 posts, I have to say that I fall on the yay for the Peoplemover side, although not all that strongly. What I feel most passionately about is moving that stupid Astro Orbiter back up on top of the pylon where it belongs, and out of Main Street. What a horrible intrusion into a previously placid area. And after all the work Walt and the founders did to provide gentle transitions between areas, this thing has always been a slap in the face to that important design principle. Move 'em!!!
Originally Posted By tangaroa >Well, that did start with America Sings >in 1974 ... so does that mean just throw >in the towel forever .. and never try? From the original promotional material and his own TV shows, Walt gave the impression that he wanted Tomorrowland to be more of an educational look at the future. At some point after he died, they ditched that idea for a more entertainment based experience and it's worked for them ever since. American Sings, Space Mountain, Captain EO - all hugely popular and all with very little to do with the future. I've said it once and I will say it again - the closest thing to Walt's original vision in Tomorrowland is Innoventions - which is considered boring and uninspired by the masses. Why learn about what the future holds when you can ride Space Mountain? >Well .. to be fair .. we can't talk >about those rides in the same breath as >the Peoplemover. Of that list .. Sure we can - because it goes to show that popularity determines attractions longevity. Autopia is a maintenance nightmare, that has never really fit into the mold of Tomorrowland. But because it is so popular - it has stayed for some 50 years now. You don't see radical proposals to close or change Autopia - and that's simply because it is hugely popular. If the PeopleMover were as popular it would still be here today. >mmm ...... Take another look Tang. Pooh, >Buzz Lightyear, Monsters Inc., the subs >next year. Everything that has come >after Rocket Rods in '98 have all been >MORE FAMILY oriented attractions. But you just proved part of my point right there. Pooh = Characters. Buzz = Characters. Monsters Inc. = Characters. Subs = Characters. They are all cartoon characters, with 75% of them being Pixar characters. If the rumors come true for DCA, they will soon be getting Midway Madness, Cars, and the Incredibles. All featuring Pixar characters. >So the only demograph that matters >anymore are those between 12-20? (Hence, >Pooh, Buzz, Monsters Inc., Nemo Subs) At some point awhile back, Disney decided that it was too hard to build attractions that appealed to everyone - so since that time they've been building attractions that appeal to one demographic over another. Cartoon Character rides for the kids and big thrill rides for the teens and young adults. Now if the PeopleMover can be made to fit into one of those two categories, then sure - it could come back. Otherwise it would be a financial risk. >But if you think leaving the track >abandoned for another 10 or 20 years is >cool .. I'd actually like them to tear out the track completely and re-evaluate their use of space in the land. Instead of focusing on attractions that were built 30 years ago.
Originally Posted By Momtoo2 Gosh I love Disney websites! What a great discussion... Everyone makes compelling debates on the for and against side of a Peoplemover return or non return. Personally as a a 37 yo woman who has visited Disneyland since she was 3 and now enjoys it with her children I would love to see a return of Peoplemover. We went to WDW last year and my 4 yo favorite things in Tomorrowland were Peoplemover and Carrousel of Progress (I love that thing). Who knew? I know it is outdated and it is not fast. I realize it would cost them money to update it but I would love to see it back.
