Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Tomorrowland has long strayed from WAlt's original vision for the land.<< >>From the original promotional material and his own TV shows, Walt gave the impression that he wanted Tomorrowland to be more of an educational look at the future. At some point after he died, they ditched that idea for a more entertainment based experience...<< Are you speaking of Walt's VISION or Walt's REALITY of Tomorrowland? The Tomorrowland of sleek monorails, nuclear submarines, futuristic technologies and space travel? Or the tomorrowland of Victorian submarines, wisecracking cavemen, futuristic bathrooms, mermaids and crosseyed sea serpents? 'Cause all of this was Tomorrowland under Walt's direct supervision and approval.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >> From the original promotional material and his own TV shows, Walt gave the impression that he wanted Tomorrowland to be more of an educational look at the future. At some point after he died, they ditched that idea for a more entertainment based experience and it's worked for them ever since. American Sings, Space Mountain, Captain EO - all hugely popular and all with very little to do with the future. << But with all due respect .. those specific attractions you mentioned . can’t get all lumped together .. as if all three were born out of the same mindset .. they all have different and unique stories of their own ..and how they originated. Just as different and unique as the story of the defunct RocketRod/Peoplemover tracks of 2000 to the present. America Sings was a very unique creation born at a very special time in our country. It’s 200th Birthday. I think everyone at WED around 1971/72 knew it was a temporary idea till something else more appropriate would come along ….. when the Bicentennial was officially over. - A far more different set of circumstances altogether for a ride (Peoplemover) that would extend into FOUR decades. America Sings was lucky to have lasted 14 years. It was only ever meant to be, from 1974 to 1977, theoretically speaking. Captain EO? Yeah … so popular .. yet it’s been gone for almost 10 years now. Lasted slightly over a decade, and increasingly laughed off in the second half. 1986-1997. And Space Mountain? Another unique story of it’s own … as it was Walt’s own idea as part of the 1967 Tomorrowland originally called “Space Portâ€. A semi fantasy/futuristic “space travel aboard people’s own space rocket into outerspace.†Today, it’s so easy to classify Space Mountain almost just another coaster .. in a coaster crazy era in America .. in 1965 though … the concept artwork showed an experience that had it’s loose ties into reality. And I believe demonstrates to this day. (Just takes some imagination). As I have personally looked over the history of Tomorrowland with a keen eye …. every attraction that has come along .. have all come with their very own set of circumstances how they all came into being (with the exception of the cohesive structure of TL:67) … and actually the only other circumstance is George Lucas’ influence over two projects where one still exists … while the other no longer does: Star Tours and Captain EO, respectively. >>I've said it once and I will say it again - the closest thing to Walt's original vision in Tomorrowland is Innoventions - which is considered boring and uninspired by the masses. Why learn about what the future holds when you can ride Space Mountain? << And while they are at it …. They can ride a leisurely attraction to catch their breath. ;-) A well diversified land is more appealing. >>Sure we can - because it goes to show that popularity determines attractions longevity. Autopia is a maintenance nightmare, that has never really fit into the mold of Tomorrowland. But because it is so popular - it has stayed for some 50 years now. You don't see radical proposals to close or change Autopia - and that's simply because it is hugely popular. If the PeopleMover were as popular it would still be here today. << Autopia resides within a heavily forested area that’s almost an entirely different land of it’s own. Trees, shrubs, and flowers don’t become dated. Another factor that keeps Autopia going are the pre-driver’s license “set†who have a rare opportunity to take the wheel of a car of their very own. The fate of the popularity of the Peoplemover is dependent on the overall health of the land. Theming, attractions, etc … as the selling point is “Roof Top Views and Sneek Peeks into Attractions.†Another thing …. It seems so easy to knock the Peoplemover …because of it’s incredible capacity … any train with fewer people SEEMS to be less popular to rides like Autopia where the capacity is OBVIOUSLY far less .. and .... HARK … more SEEMINGLY popular. A point I bring up over, and over .. and again .. and again …. And I can’t get over how easily it gets glossed over …. OF COURSE the Peoplemover became unpopular in it’s last years (to a degree despite it’s incredible capacity) .. because Tomorrowland progressively turned into a ghetto between 1988 to 1995. And the Peoplemover was hugely popular throughout the 70s and 80s .. no one can lay claim otherwise. The land is increasingly getting in much better shape than it was between 1988 to 1995 …. With Buzz, a reinvented Submarine Voyage .. among other Tomorrowland fixes that would make a Peoplemover II more appealing than the Peoplemover in the era of 1988 to 1995. >>But you just proved part of my point right there. Pooh = Characters. Buzz = Characters. Monsters Inc. = Characters. Subs = Characters. They are all cartoon characters, with 75% of them being Pixar characters. If the rumors come true for DCA, they will soon be getting Midway Madness, Cars, and the Incredibles. All featuring Pixar characters. << Yeah .. but all those attractions were basically created from scratch. Once again … we have a very unique situation: A track of over 4,000 feet in length .. meandering in and out of other attractions. Are we going to attach a plush toy to the front of every train?! WDI has an opportunity they haven’t had for DL in a long time. A chance to recreate a ride where a cartoon cannot so easily be fostered in .. and they have to address this in a much more human, tangible sort of way .. if that makes any sense. I sense .. in this one particular situation …. The RIGHT thing can be accomplished here. >>At some point awhile back, Disney decided that it was too hard to build attractions that appealed to everyone -<< “Decidedâ€? No … they lost their touch, and seem to not even care anymore. Seems though .. the tide is turning. Not so much, yet, to confirm it 100% … but I think they are getting the message that their bread and butter are family attractions .. and not everything need to be attached to their latest and greatest toon character. >>Now if the PeopleMover can be made to fit into one of those two categories, then sure - it could come back. Otherwise it would be a financial risk. << It would be a financial risk .. sure … if Tomorrowland were in the same shape as the waning attendance days were in the last 7 years ….. but as other attractions get renovated or changed .. the appeal of a “Roof Top View with Sneak Peeks into Attractions†improves .. so will the desire to hop aboard . and get a unique view of an improving land. >>I'd actually like them to tear out the track completely and re-evaluate their use of space in the land. Instead of focusing on attractions that were built 30 years ago.<< Sure .. I’d like to see a massive reconstruction of the land too … create another transporting ride of some kind that would meander in and out of different attractions. There’s nothing more exciting to me than a Tomorrowland with a futuristic overhead transporting ride of some kind circling the entire land. WDW’s is continuing the tradition quite fine. Though it’s unfortunate a kinetic adventure of it’s type is missing in DLP’s Discoveryland, TDL and HKDL Tomorrowlands ….. but I don’t understand why anyone would want a Tomorrowland that is nothing more than a random set of “unattached†buildings like any 20th Century city on Earth. How utterly boring, generic, and lifeless!
Originally Posted By oc_dean Hey .. if any imagineer at Disney is reading this ... As the number one proponent for an all-new system .. think I can be one of the first new riders???
Originally Posted By FerretAfros For what it's worth, I noticed at the beginning of the month that the rail on the track as it goes over Redd Rockets has been painted white. I saw it from the Space Mountain queue, and it really threw me off, since all the pictures I had see (mostly of the promenade section) showed an unpainted rail that was beginning to get a little rusty, yet the entire thing that I saw appeared to be freshly painted. I'm not sure when the painting took place (it could have been last year when they repainted most of the land), but it seemed to be a little different.
Originally Posted By tangaroa >But with all due respect .. those >specific attractions you mentioned >can’t get all lumped together .. Of course they can. They were all built in Tomorrowland after Walt died. That was the whole point to my statement. After Walt died the attractions added to Tomorrowland drifted further and further away from a educational “vista†into the category of pure entertainment. Walt is said to have said about Tomorrowland: “The Tomorrowland attractions have been designed to give you an opportunity to participate in adventures that are a living blueprint of our future.“ Today no attraction in Tomorrowland sincerely fits that model except for Innoventions – they are ALL fantasy/entertainment based. And the one attraction that is educational – Innoventions – is widely panned. This is why your argument that the PeopleMover is still a futuristic technology and still deserves a place in Tomorrowland is irrelevant. Tomorrowland isn’t about the future anymore – it’s about entertainment. >Autopia resides within a heavily >forested area that’s almost an entirely >different land of it’s own. Trees, >shrubs, and flowers don’t become dated. >Another factor that keeps Autopia going >are the pre-driver’s license “set†who >have a rare opportunity to take the >wheel of a car of their very own. I won’t argue WHY Autopia is popular – just wanted to show that it is. >The fate of the popularity of the >Peoplemover is dependent on the overall >health of the land. Theming, >attractions, etc … as the selling point >is “Roof Top Views and Sneek Peeks into >Attractions.†I have a really hard time buying this argument. For one thing, you just mentioned that Autopia resides in a heavily landscaped area and linked that to it’s popularity – but over half of the PeopleMover track resides in the same area so shouldn’t the PeopleMover be similarly popular? And I strongly disagree with the notion that a ride’s popularity should only be tied into the popularity of the area it is in and the attractions around it. If an attraction is not popular enough to draw it’s own crowd, it SHOULD be removed and replaced. If anything this theory seems to suggest that the popularity of the PeopleMover would be cyclical – and as soon as enough time passes and Tomorrowland is seen as old and outdated again, the cries to tear out the PeopleMover would resurface. Why bother to rebuild it then? >Another thing …. It seems so easy to >knock the Peoplemover …because of it’s >incredible capacity … any train with >fewer people SEEMS to be less popular to >rides like Autopia where the capacity is >OBVIOUSLY far less .. and .... HARK … >more SEEMINGLY popular. I think it would be silly to assume that any person of influence over the operation of Disneyland would look ONLY at line length to determine popularity. Disney has access to numbers and figures that we simply do not have, and we have to trust that they use those numbers to benefit their guests (as benefiting their guests is beneficial to their business). At some point in the past their surveys and reviews told them that the popularity of the PeopleMover had declined to a point where the maintenance and operation cost could no longer be justified. We know that as early as 1990 – when the plans for WestCot were being developed – it was planned to move the PeopleMover from a Tomorrowland attraction into a parking lot tram. Even earlier than that, in 1980 when the plans for Tokyo Disneyland were created – the PeopleMover was left out. No Disney park since the Magic Kingdom in 1971 has had a PeopleMover attraction. Even during the time period where you say Tomorrowland was it’s most healthiest – Disney was re-evaluating the PeopleMover. In 1977 they added the Super Speed Tunnel show scene to the ride, and tried to remarket it in an attempt to garner more popularity for the attraction. In 1981 they added the Tron overlay. So it’s clear to me that Disney knew the popularity of the PeopleMover was limited, as far back as 1977. It’s been 11 years since the PeopleMover closed and to date no real effort has been made in bringing the ride back. The track has been left to rust and rot and who knows if it’s even feasible to operate an attraction on that track any longer. If Disney’s park surveys could show that a significant number of people would spend more money in the park if a new PeopleMover ride was built, then Disney could justify the cost of rebuilding it – but my guess is the lack of action in this area is indicative of a lack of public interest. I looked at the PeopleMover petition website and it currently has about 800 names on their petition. Compared to millions of guests that come to Disneyland each year – it’s really a insignificant sample. To pay back a 20 million dollar PeopleMover ride, those 800 people would have to spend 35 dollars EVERY DAY in the park for two years. And that’s just to pay off the ride – that’s not counting operation and maintenance. It’s just not worth the money to appease a minority of fans. Unless somehow it can be proven that the average Joe from Iowa will spend $5000 dollars to fly his family to California for a high-priced Disney vacation, then any money spent on a PeopleMover ride would be a complete waste. >Yeah .. but all those attractions were >basically created from scratch. Completely untrue. Pooh, Buzz, Subs all use exciting facilities. And a 4000 foot PeopleMover track can be used to create a decent high speed thrill ride (like the Rocket Rods) or, at slower speeds, is a wonderful opportunity to create an immersive storytelling adventure. Creating a ride that did nothing but move people around would be a complete waste of Imagineering talent and resources. >Seems though .. the tide is turning. Not >so much, yet, to confirm it 100% … but I >think they are getting the message that >their bread and butter are family >attractions .. and not everything need >to be attached to their latest and >greatest toon character. That's right - sometimes they use Jedi. But for fun - name a ride they are building that isn’t tied to the latest and greatest toon character OR exclusively thrill based. I can't really think of one, but I will fully admit that I haven't been paying total attention to the World of Disney. >Sure .. I’d like to see a massive >reconstruction of the land too … create >another transporting ride of some >kind that would meander in and out of >different attractions. There’s nothing >more exciting to me than a Tomorrowland >with a futuristic overhead transporting >ride of some kind circling the entire >land. But even while saying you want a whole new Tomorrowland, you still proclaim the virtues of the PeopleMover. I honestly think it’s time has past – a relic of o1960s thinking. When I think of the PeopleMover I think back to the days of engineers with big thick black glasses and slide rules shooting monkey’s into space in tin cans. Ancient history. The future today is about so much more than finding a lazy way to walk from one building to another. And that's if Disney even wants to bring Tomorrowland back to the original vision Walt intended for it, but something tells me they don't need to. Tomorrowland is pretty popular now with Space Mountain, Star Tours and Buzz Lightyear. It's long passed the days of homes and bathrooms of the future, and exhibits about paint. I would like Tomorrowland to be about the future, and to ditch the whole cartoon fantasy tie-ins, but above all else, I want Tomorrowland to just be an entertaining place to visit. That's more important than anything else.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Great post Dean! I can't imagine the MK w/o a peoplemover and would love to see some sort of system back in DL
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Disney has access to numbers and figures that we simply do not have, and we have to trust that they use those numbers to benefit their guests (as benefiting their guests is beneficial to their business).<< Where is the real Tangaroa and what have you done with him! Good points, but come on it's not so hunky-dory. If guests said they would pay anything for a new Harry Potter attraction that doesn't lead straight to the production of one.
Originally Posted By tangaroa >Where is the real Tangaroa and what have >you done with him! He's trapped in a Mexican POW camp. >Good points, but come on it's not so >hunky-dory. If guests said they would >pay anything for a new Harry Potter >attraction that doesn't lead straight to >the production of one. When it comes to guest surveys that's mostly true. If you asked 100 guests an open ended question such as "What kind of new attraction would you want to see built" you'd get 100 different answers. But if you asked "Would you like to see an attraction built using the Harry Potter Franchise" you'd get a lot more positive feedback from that. You're right to think though that the surveys alone don't paint the whole picture. Generally I think this is why it's far far easier for Disney to build attractions that represent a known factor. If you build a ride based on Harry Potter, you're building a ride not only based on guests surveys and opinions, but also based on the known success of the franchise and merchandise. The same goes for any of the PIXAR characters - you'd basing the success of the unknown attraction on the known success of the franchise. It's no different from Hollywood basing the success of a movie on the lead actor/actress instead of on the actual story content of the movie. When it comes to bringing back the PeopleMover - you don't have the safety net that adding characters or thrills would provide. It would be a big financial risk. I've said before that I could see them bringing back an attraction to that track IF it included either a known character or franchise or a thrill element since thrills = easy money for theme parks.
Originally Posted By ChiMike This has been a great thread! >>He's trapped in a Mexican POW camp.<< OH NO! I hope he's not being subjected to Hotpockets and King of the Hill reruns. >>When it comes to bringing back the PeopleMover - you don't have the safety net that adding characters or thrills would provide. It would be a big financial risk<< But I think that skirts the big picture. I completely agree with your stated thesis and points, but on the other hand there is so much Disney funds that has a shorter shelf-life then a recommissioned ride. So much that Disney funds that has no attributible added revenue tied to it. Painting and decorating the castle, big hats and big wands, designing walk around chracters for movie flops like Treasure Planet and Atlantis, Home on the Range exhibit space, the upgrade a few years ago of TSI, the upgrade of JC, etc. If someone where to do what you suggest and ask people if they would spend X or return Y more times if they updated JC I would suggest you would get close to the same answer if you were to substitute the return of the Peoplemover for the JC. My point is that there are some things that Disney does, some things that they spend their money on, that have no direct benefit to the parks, or frankly the guests. Some are ego-driven projects, some like TSI might be motivated by risk-adverse attiutudes, some are simply bad decisions. So when you see the kind of money that is spent on photo collages all over the park, it is hard to say that a reinvestment in the Peoplemover, something that already has a footprint existing within the park, is any worse then meaningless alterations for the sake of change. At least with the Peoplemover there would be added capacity, an added activity and, I don't know, a better vibe, brought back to the park. >>I've said before that I could see them bringing back an attraction to that track IF it included either a known character or franchise or a thrill element since thrills = easy money for theme parks.<< And I agree with you on this. It is much more likely that something would come back as an update not the same old '67 peoplemover. I would love them to combine the Peoplemover track with the Carousel building and make it one new attraction. Maybe put a show back into the first floor of the theater, load/unload and show scenes on second floor, and turn the rocket tower into an additional show scene. More show scenes could be added in the Star Tours and Buzz tunnels. Wouldn't take much and definitly would help add capacity but make a new attraction out of two dead (as far as I am concerned) facilities.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "This is why your argument that the PeopleMover is still a futuristic technology and still deserves a place in Tomorrowland is irrelevant. Tomorrowland isn’t about the future anymore – it’s about entertainment." And may I also add that there is absolutely nothing futuristic about peoplemovers.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>>>>>>>> >But with all due respect .. those >specific attractions you mentioned >can’t get all lumped together .. Of course they can. They were all built in Tomorrowland after Walt died. That was the whole point to my statement. After Walt died the attractions added to Tomorrowland drifted further and further away from a educational “vista†into the category of pure entertainment. Walt is said to have said about Tomorrowland: “The Tomorrowland attractions have been designed to give you an opportunity to participate in adventures that are a living blueprint of our future.“ Today no attraction in Tomorrowland sincerely fits that model except for Innoventions – they are ALL fantasy/entertainment based. And the one attraction that is educational – Innoventions – is widely panned. <<<<<< >>This is why your argument that the PeopleMover is still a futuristic technology and still deserves a place in Tomorrowland is irrelevant. Tomorrowland isn’t about the future anymore – it’s about entertainment.<< But entertaining in, at least, a futuristic sort of way … after all this is Tomorrowland. Or is Disney going to start putting a Frontierland or Main St. type attractions just because it’s “entertainingâ€? You say the Peoplemover is irrelevant as far as futuristic technology is concerned .... Yet .. what about as a “futuristic commodity†that is greatly underdeveloped even after 40 years .. around the country? Sure technologies develop within short time frames ... but still is years away from fully being developed. Scientist are close to creating the world’s first cloaking device. But it’s going to take your great, great grandchildren to witness the technology in a mainstream way .. and they’ll be making the same argument .. “well, it’s irrelevant as futuristic technology because it was invented in the early 21st century.†>> Tomorrowland isn’t about the future anymore – it’s about entertainment.<< It does not mean that no set of designers can sit down .. and atleast come to a conclusion there has to be a balance between contemporary entertainment .. and futurism. Or they might as well give up on a futuristic land altogether .. and call it Pixartodayland. When it comes to “Walt’s Original†though ... I’d like to have some faith that Lassetter among others are going to be a little more careful what they decide to plant down into concrete and steel for the next several decades – for ANY attraction. >> I have a really hard time buying this argument. For one thing, you just mentioned that Autopia resides in a heavily landscaped area and linked that to it’s popularity – but over half of the PeopleMover track resides in the same area so shouldn’t the PeopleMover be similarly popular? And I strongly disagree with the notion that a ride’s popularity should only be tied into the popularity of the area it is in and the attractions around it. If an attraction is not popular enough to draw it’s own crowd, it SHOULD be removed and replaced. If anything this theory seems to suggest that the popularity of the PeopleMover would be cyclical – and as soon as enough time passes and Tomorrowland is seen as old and outdated again, the cries to tear out the PeopleMover would resurface. Why bother to rebuild it then?<< It doesn’t seem you are following something here ..... Tomorrowland started getting shabby looking when attractions began closing. America Sings – ‘88, Mission to Mars – ’92 , Skyway – ‘94 .. then the Space Place Restaurant – ‘92… and then looking around the land - Looking run down …. Star Tours newness gone for quite some time … Captain EO’s 80s dance music getting more dated with the march of time .. stretching deaper into the 90s … the same circle-vision film since 1984 American Journeys ... THEN .... The same boxy peoplemover cars since 1967 .. with those clunky tires pulling each train along .... I began hating the curve right at the bend cutting across the Monorail station .... Even *I* said ..... This ride is depressing .... because the sights are depressing .... After all .. this is a major point to the ride .... And I hate how it was going .. bump .. bump .. in certain places. Trust me Tang ... IF they were planning on bringing the same design out again ... I would be in the same camp as you. But I seriously doubt they are going to bring back the same old “1967†Peoplemover. There are many different technologies developed in the last FORTY years that can create a super smooth ride .. and imaginations that can create some of the sleekest, coolest cars/trains. I have no doubt they got some cool looking designs that would make this popular again .. and be able to pay for itself EASILY! They don’t have to start from scratch. The track is ALREADY there. Disney LOVES infrastructures that are already in place .. saves them money!! Why not create a brand new Peoplemover where HALF the costs are already taken care of?! >> At some point in the past their surveys and reviews told them that the popularity of the PeopleMover had declined to a point where the maintenance and operation cost could no longer be justified.<< What surveys were taken in the park where the Peoplemover was concerned? With my AP .. always there .. I recall no such surveys asking the public specifically about the Peoplemover. >>We know that as early as 1990 – when the plans for WestCot were being developed – it was planned to move the PeopleMover from a Tomorrowland attraction into a parking lot tram. << Taking the Tomorrowland Peoplemover OUT? I think that idea was to have a seperate system .. Having nothing to do with the one in Tomorrowland. If you remember the "Tomorrowland:2055" renovation ... planning began around 1988. Then sometime in the next year or there after ... the big plan was unveiled with a super large artist rendering. I'm sure you remember which one I'm talking about. From a point of view looking south .. several hundred feet up in the air. Showed a 2-tiered Tomorrowland with the Peoplemover fully intact .. in fact ... it was shown re-routed .. taking the center "promenade" track out .. and both entry-exit lanes going directly into the Star Trader .. and the track would have gone from Circle-Vision straight into Star Tours. Never did it show any such paths going outside of TL going into Westcot. >>Even earlier than that, in 1980 when the plans for Tokyo Disneyland were created – the PeopleMover was left out. No Disney park since the Magic Kingdom in 1971 has had a PeopleMover attraction. Even during the time period where you say Tomorrowland was it’s most healthiest – Disney was re-evaluating the PeopleMover.<< I think a part of that is due to the fact Japan (TDL), France (DLP) have their act together in modern mass transit systems .. and the locals may not have seen it as something futuristic .. because they already have it .. in atleast in some boring 20th century formats. But here in the states .. where this country doesn't quite have it together as well as European countries and especially Japan ... mass transit systems are still in many places in America "a dream away". And that makes a Peoplemover an interesting "futuristic commodity" that in many ways comes off entertaining .. because we can "entertain our minds" with the thought we can have more of these transporting dreams/ideas sometime in the future. >> At some point in the past their surveys and reviews told them that the popularity of the PeopleMover had declined to a point where the maintenance and operation cost could no longer be justified.<< What surveys? What surveys??!!! You tell me specifically when they had people asking questions about the Peoplemover at any time in the last 20 years? I want to hear this. >> In 1977 they added the Super Speed Tunnel show scene to the ride, and tried to remarket it in an attempt to garner more popularity for the attraction. In 1981 they added the Tron overlay. So it’s clear to me that Disney knew the popularity of the PeopleMover was limited, as far back as 1977.<< Sorry .. that was an easy, no brainer ENHANCEMENT .. as they would do to any attraction .. as they have over the years. From 1967 to 1973 guests had a STAGGERING view of Progress City to see. And do you remember what they had in the years when America Sings was new? (1974-1976) Movie Poster size views of Del Monte’s sponsorship … of a few scenes of America Sings. Very similar to the full size posters seen just before entering Circle-Vision .. and waving to everyone in the waiting/pre-show room. You’re right that it was something to make the ride more appealing. But lets explain the full story while we are at it. Which is what I’m interested in with this entire subject. The subject of those empty tracks for 6 years is a complicated controversy that I’m sure makes our chat seem like nothing .. in comparison to closed doors at WDI and the studios in Burbank. >> It’s been 11 years since the PeopleMover closed and to date no real effort has been made in bringing the ride back. The track has been left to rust and rot and who knows if it’s even feasible to operate an attraction on that track any longer. If Disney’s park surveys could show that a significant number of people would spend more money in the park if a new PeopleMover ride was built, then Disney could justify the cost of rebuilding it – but my guess is the lack of action in this area is indicative of a lack of public interest.<< If we use our noggins .. and think this out to every single issue at hand … what you quote above here .. most likely represents only a small percentage to the entire unique problem here. Sorry Tang .. I’m not believing you in any such survey being given to guests about ...†Do you want to see a Peoplemover type attraction return.†>> but my guess is the lack of action in this area is indicative of a lack of public interest<< No. More like ... big changes .. people being let go at WDI .. Eisner gone ... Pixar people on board now .. and other major exec changes. Do you remember when Eisner and Wells came on in 1984 .. every single project on board was put on hold until all the dust settled .. and the new guys looked at everything before it was greenlit? How about the one renovation that is so little discussed .... Before “TL:2055†... Tomorrowland was set for a different renovation idea that was to start in 1984 .. with the return of Carousel of Progress, Star Tours rollercoaster ride, additional Peoplemover and Monorail tracks wrapping around in Tomorrowland Proper. - ALL put on hold with all kinds of executive RIGMAROLE.... just like what’s been happening now .. and the last few years. >> It’s been 11 years since the PeopleMover closed and to date no real effort has been made in bringing the ride back. The track has been left to rust and rot and who knows if it’s even feasible to operate an attraction on that track any longer.<< Also ..... I’m willing to bet the farm they have been going back and forth .. wanting to throw another thrill ride on the tracks .. and it has been one of the most unique tug-of-wars going on behind closed doors up in 1401 Flower St., Gendale …. since Rocket Rods shuttered in Sept 2000! >> I looked at the PeopleMover petition website and it currently has about 800 names on their petition. Compared to millions of guests that come to Disneyland each year – it’s really a insignificant sample. To pay back a 20 million dollar PeopleMover ride, those 800 people would have to spend 35 dollars EVERY DAY in the park for two years. And that’s just to pay off the ride – that’s not counting operation and maintenance.<< How can anyone expect a small-roots movement to reach the main stream public without some sort of massive advertisement to really reach out? I really appreciate that web owner with this small sampling for the Walt Disney Co. to devulge … that if this segment can desire a ride back .... It’s one small sampling that COULD represent a larger demograph out there .. It’s a matter of doing some homework. >> It’s just not worth the money to appease a minority of fans. << Well, what about the scores of millions who haven’t been heard? And please don’t start with this so-called survey stuff .... I’ve seen no such survey that has asked the specific question – ever. >>Completely untrue. Pooh, Buzz, Subs all use exciting facilities.<< You can argue Subs ... but Circle-Vision didn't have a sophisticated omnimover set-up hidden under it's floor .. and massive work that had to be done to Country Bear's building to make it level ... and lay in a track, along with all the rest of the infrastructure for a moving ride system. >> or, at slower speeds, is a wonderful opportunity to create an immersive storytelling adventure. Creating a ride that did nothing but move people around would be a complete waste of Imagineering talent and resources.<< Hmmm .. you could say that about Monorail. Strange how it’s okay for Monorail to stick around ... but not another system fundamentally the same. How does one take this unique empty track and create a “story telling adventure†as if it’s a show building within itself? We have story telling adventures contained within buildings .. then we have this unique track. So it’s “showbuilding†rides or nothing for TL? >> That's right - sometimes they use Jedi. But for fun - name a ride they are building that isn’t tied to the latest and greatest toon character OR exclusively thrill based. I can't really think of one, but I will fully admit that I haven't been paying total attention to the World of Disney.<< It’s like this is a multiple choice question where the only answers are “A†or “Bâ€: Thrills or toons. But this is a unique answer where multiple answers A or B don’t fit. And the only answer is “C†… but no one wants to see it. The color of the sky is blue. Not purple or green. >> But even while saying you want a whole new Tomorrowland, you still proclaim the virtues of the PeopleMover. I honestly think it’s time has past – a relic of o1960s thinking. When I think of the PeopleMover I think back to the days of engineers with big thick black glasses and slide rules shooting monkey’s into space in tin cans. Ancient history. The future today is about so much more than finding a lazy way to walk from one building to another.<< So lets start a campaign to have the Monorail shut down permanently. Because the monorail fits your criteria for everything you’ve been mentioning. It’s also a “relic of ol’1950s thinking (even older!) With those same engineers with big thick black glasses and slide rules shooting monkey’s into space in tin cans.†Where were those so-called surveys .. and where were those toon pushing imaginers where the Monorail is concerned? It’s not a thrill ride .. it has no basis with any Disney character or even Pixar. Heck .... get them to stop going through with spending money because it’s the same financial risk as the Peoplemover .. How dare they put millions into new Mark VII trains .. stop the insanity! They are wasting their money! It’s a huge financial risk .. stop the insanity .. stop this insanity ... Everyone should realize the future is not about any forms of transportation .... You work 20 miles away – WALK BUDDY! What? You want convenient sleek looking systems to preview at Disneyland .. and then the same thing in your hometown someday? .. forget it! That’s not what the future is about at all. We just magically find ourselves getting around in some mysterious way .. and Tomorrowland should never represent forms of transportation. It’s ONLY suppose to be collections of showbuildings. But I truly appreciate you bringing this up Tang. Because I know for the most part .. you are only echoeing some of the illogic spewing from Disney Corp. >>And that's if Disney even wants to bring Tomorrowland back to the original vision Walt intended for it, but something tells me they don't need to. Tomorrowland is pretty popular now with Space Mountain, Star Tours and Buzz Lightyear.<< And it's in their best interest in my humble opinion .. that a brand new Peoplemover system can "tie" all of Tomorrowland together again and provide a much needed variety into the mix of attractions. >> I would like Tomorrowland to be about the future, and to ditch the whole cartoon fantasy tie-ins, but above all else, I want Tomorrowland to just be an entertaining place to visit. That's more important than anything else.<< You and I definitely agree on that! Especially ditching .. as you put it .... “the whole cartoon fantasy tie-insâ€. From my point of view ... the situation with this track .. cannot be addressed with the same sensibilities as with past Disney theme park projects of late. Like the Monorail … It too needs the same “give it a new train design†.... and possibly add another unique “twist†to it to refreshen the attraction the same way the Monorail has received in it’s celebrated history.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>"This is why your argument that the PeopleMover is still a futuristic technology and still deserves a place in Tomorrowland is irrelevant. Tomorrowland isn’t about the future anymore – it’s about entertainment." And may I also add that there is absolutely nothing futuristic about peoplemovers.<< And there's nothing futuristic about space travel .. because astronauts have already done it around Earth's orbit.
Originally Posted By berol I remember a bunch of LP'ers talking about Peoplemovers as a realistic transit system a long time ago and it was pretty much agreed by those involved that it was a bad one. If it hasn't hit the LP graveyard, it's worth a read. Peoplemover bored me to death in 1972, 1978 and 1980. Monorail never did. Put Peoplemover cars on the monorail at those speeds and I might like it. The Peoplerailmonomover!
Originally Posted By dr jones Dean, your point about the "sights" being depressing is spot on. With the way Tommorrowland is being fixed up, a sleek new People Mover cruising overhead would be great because you would have interesting things to look at again. I've said on here before, as have others, that Tommorrowland is missing that wonderful kinetic energy that it used to have. When the PM and the Monorail were gliding overhead, and the Skyway and the Rocket Jets soared above it all. I would LOVE to see PM mk.2, as well as the Rocket Jets up on top.
Originally Posted By oc_dean Whatever small segment of LP posters that was ... it can't speak for the mainstream public.
Originally Posted By oc_dean Thanks for your positive thoughts on this subject Dr. Jones ...... If Tomorrowland was the size of EPCOT's Future World .. then Berol's sentiment would pay off .. with a land area large enough .. and a track long enough .. to pull off a high speed Peoplemover. But DL's Tomorrowland is really a tight, little space. It's not enough space to do anything as fast as some want it to be.
Originally Posted By berol If only it had a loop. My feeling on the sneak peeks at attractions is I'd rather ride the things. Although, my peek into Inner Space was the only look I ever got at it. I wonder what speed would make me think it's not bad. The super speed tunnels didn't do anything for me and I tried hard. "Whatever small segment of LP posters that was ... it can't speak for the mainstream public." glass stones! or is it stone houses! errr... *scratches head* We just flat out couldn't think of how Peoplemover could work for mass transit, loooong list of negatives and little positive, especially if elevated. It wasn't opinion-based, just a bunch of us yahoos throwing out facts and seeing which way it tilted. But then it's not like my world will end if Peoplemover is rebuilt.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>glass stones! or is it stone houses! << Come on berol... you didn't exactly come in with much positive or non cynical views to discuss. Oh well ... it's a public forum where we are all free to discuss our thoughts. You just need to understand that as I did call my "Futurist" for quite some time before ... I have a much more positive feeling about futurism. It's hard for me to appreciate small groups who have nothing but the worst things to say ... all the while .. there's a main stream public out there .. who might actually like the idea of Tomorrowland having some more "movement" again. And sorry Peoplemover was never fast enough for you. At least there's Space Mountain .. and perhaps the fast pace motion of Star Tours.
