Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>It's an interesting topic, but at the end of the day when you get sick of something it's usually because you had too much. I absolutely love cheesecake, but if I have it too often, I don't want it anymore. Not for a long, long time. It is possible to have the same type of experience with anything...even Disney.<<< Well considering I go less often now and am not online as much as I used to be, I see this as a deprivation.
Originally Posted By iamsally I know I said, " I have to admit that I have been pondering the posibility of vacationing elsewhere." I feel I have to amend as I was just now watching the video of the last big family trip to Disneyland and kept crying. As long as the attractions and the music bring tears I know I am still in love with the Parks.
Originally Posted By USCSurfer I agree, Moon Waffle. I do think it tends to be pretty relative with regard to what appeals to people. I remember the attractions they used to have, including the mule train and the train to Rainbow Ridge, and I remember just loving those. Likewise, Monsanto's Adventure Through Inner Space, Flight to the Moon, Rocket Jets, People Mover, and others. I know that things can't stay the same as they were. Even Walt didn't want that. I guess it's just the sentimental fool within that is reluctant to change, even when the things they are putting in really are quite extraordinary. Everything that was replaced was indeed dated, but I didn't care. It brought back great memories of my childhood. The kids of today would be utterly bored by those attractions, and the attractions they have today will someday seem dated. I wonder how many of them will look back and say how much they wish Star Tours was still there, etc. (And yes, I'm assuming that someday that attraction will seem dated enough to be replaced too....some think it already is).
Originally Posted By tiki tiki tiki tiki I´m glad to see I´m not alone when it comes to yearning for that old magical Disneyland of my youth. One of the first things I posted on LP was in a future new attraction thread, I think it was about the new TSI, and I remember commenting that each time something is changed or taken out at the park, I get shivers up my spine. At the moment I felt as if nobody understood me from the comments I got in return. But it´s true, it´s like gettin a tooth pulled... well, not that bad but I´m sure many of you can relate. I have been true to DL all my life and it really hurts to see all of the old magic go little by little and it gets even worse when some of the replacements are unveiled. I still love the park and miss it loads now that I´m so far away that I only get to visit every 2 or 3 years (thanks to this I tend to forget all the changes). 2 years ago I took DH for his first visit and he turned into a little boy just as I thought he would oooing and aaahing left and right. But I found myself telling him things like "there used to be this wonderful attraction here" or "Main Street was so great before" (any land could be used in this phrase) or "the workers used to be much nicer". I had to shut up because I was beginning to ruin his visit, but I so much wanted him to have seen and felt what DL used to be. And davewasbaloo, you are not a terrible person... europeans, whada they know!
Originally Posted By woody The biggest problem is the price you're paying to visit. It wouldn't be so bad if I didn't feel like I'm being ripped off each time I go. But Disney isn't exactly backing off their prices. They just posted record profits from their theme parks. Success breeds more arrogance. There are other vacation choices. A theme park isn't the best vacation choice. You can do other things that are more fun and authentic. A theme park only mimics the world in a play environment. It is actually rather kiddie like. Go see the real world. I'm sure the Disney executives are taking their bonuses and taking a real vacation!!!
Originally Posted By jonvn "Success breeds more arrogance." Yep. I like it when we agree on things, woody. Makes me feel that it's gotta be right, you know?
Originally Posted By patrickegan Some things get stale and others expensive. In the case of Tomorrowland it used to express an idea. We as a society have become more cynical in nature and by exposure (over), have become jaded. Take Blade runner for example, while admittedly dark (way too dark for Disneyland), it still held some promise through architecture (social and building), and also the wow of certain technologies. A story could still be told within the footprint of Tomorrowland, one that could evoke feeling and contemplation. A world of promise and also something that we can be reminded needs care. Maybe they could get rid of Pee Wee and hire Al Gore???
Originally Posted By patrickegan Sorry, posted in the wrong thread… Now back to your regularly scheduled programming…
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Go see the real world.<<< Um woody, I have. I have been to about 89 countries, and I work on international projects. I go to DL to escape the real world. I just wish it wasn't about Toons. and tiki tiki tiki, I am totally with you. about 20 years ago, any time disney talked about change, I got all excited. And almost all the changes were for the better. Now I get chills. Most changes are dumming it down and stripping away the ethos that made us all fall in love with DL.
Originally Posted By bambifamily davewasbaloo, Right on! You nailed it with that comment. In the same vein of the the whole Park becoming too "toony", here is what Tony Baxter, who is on the DVD commentary for the theatrical featurette, Disneyland, U.S.A., has to say on this topic: "People think of the Disney characters--Mickey and the gang--that they meet at Disneyland, but in the early 50's, when we first opened, the characters weren't allowed. You see a few on the opening day filming. Those were loaned from the Ice Capades, but from that opening until the late 50's, like '59 or '60, Mickey and the gang didn't appear. "So [streetmosphere-type] characters like "Trinidad," the fellow that was sweeping the streets there, became very, very important in kind of giving that sense of people "living" in Disneyland. So you see boat captains and saloon girls and native american dancers and everything that really made this place come to life because there were no characters." I thought Tony's comments on the DVD are very interesting!
Originally Posted By woody >>Um woody, I have. I have been to about 89 countries, and I work on international projects. I go to DL to escape the real world. I just wish it wasn't about Toons.<< Well, I'm sure you nailed my comment with this. (Not really.) Vacationing at DL means a escape to a kiddie version of the world. A fake world of artificial vice and virtue. It is all about toons because thats the audience Disney caters to. Perhaps the perception was that DL wasn't always like this, but I think our memories fail us in this. The Disney theme parks are fun, but they are hardly adequate for what the world offers especially if that is what you expect within each theme park, but especially with EPCOT and Animal Kingdom, and the various themed resort complexes.
Originally Posted By jonvn Yes, Tony on that DVD said a LOT of things that were interesting. He plainly knows what we are talking about. In fact, in some of these discussions, I've paraphrased things he had to say. So it probably is a case where some people in WDI know what is right, but they are overruled by the synergy monster coming from elsewhere. Who knows. I just know that Disney as a whole, is not producing like it should.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Disney does not offer a "kiddie" version of the real world. It's more romanticized. While of course there are things that interest kids there, the architecture and layout has never really been planned to look like they would want it. It's more like the vision that everybody sees when they think of "Victorian street" or "frontier" or "European village." They are very much based in adult ideas and concepts, but they are edited to become what everybody dreams a real one would be like. Because Disney knows that if it looks like the real thing, people would just go to the real place, they know that they need to be better than real. Ornate wrought iron balconies covering practically every inch of every building in NOS, while a lot of the ones in the real French Quarter barely have any shows that they tried to out-do the original. Similar to the new Dreams Suite, it's all done over the top. If not, people might complain that it looked too much like the real world. While the real world isn't really that interesting (at least when you take into account a 360 view), they had to finish it the way people would assume it looks on the other side of the postcard. While it's too much for a real way to build a standard building, it works just fine for a theme park because it doesn't have a standard use. Just like the Dreams Suite is over the top for an apartment, it doesn't matter, because you're only there once. If you lived in DL and used the buildings like they look like they should be used, you would quickly realize that it doesn't work. The attention to details is a very much adult thing. It's not done for the kids, it's done to meet our own fanciful expectations of what those types of places should look like.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Well, I'm sure you nailed my comment with this. (Not really.) Vacationing at DL means a escape to a kiddie version of the world. A fake world of artificial vice and virtue.> If that's how you feel, then it's simple - don't go.
Originally Posted By woody >>If that's how you feel, then it's simple - don't go.<< That's not what I'm saying or implying. Disney theme parks is a choice among many vacation choices. Disney has been trying to dominate the vacation experience in many areas... to become an one-stop shop. It's a mistake for people to think it offers the best value or a premium value. At minimum, it's a high priced value of moderate quality.
Originally Posted By bambifamily "At minimum, it's a high priced value of moderate quality." That's what Disneyland has become. but not what it should be, and I don't believe it's what Walt Disney intended. And it is certainly not something we the consumers need to accept simply because it's the only choice offered to us. Corporate greed (charging more and giving less) has dictated many of the changes we've mentioned here that are bothering us, and since the downhill evolution has been gradual and hard to detect, it becomes the "norm" for many people - both guests and Disney execs alike. Rather than just accepting these "bad changes" as fact --or just not go anymore if I don't like it -- I prefer to enjoy expressing our thoughts and grievances in the hope that things could change for the better. Perhaps the folks in charge of the place just need some good old constructive criticism. Don't accept mediocrity. We shouldn't be forced to accept it, so don't. I believe Disneyland could be beautiful and 'smart' again if managed correctly.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>If that's how you feel, then it's simple - don't go.<< <That's not what I'm saying or implying. Disney theme parks is a choice among many vacation choices.> Well, no kidding. <Disney has been trying to dominate the vacation experience in many areas... to become an one-stop shop. It's a mistake for people to think it offers the best value or a premium value. At minimum, it's a high priced value of moderate quality.> Compared to what? Compared to other theme parks? It's still the best quality, and yes it's more expensive. A week at DLR or WDW compared to a week in London? Apples and oranges. I bring up London, because that's a possible next vacation spot for us (and by the way, talk about expensive with the dollar what it is now, but that's another topic). I don't expect to find the sophistication and breadth of experiences that one can have in London at DLR. At the same time, I don't expect to find the Haunted Mansion or Space Mountain in London. These are complete apples and oranges, and I for one enjoy both. It's also why I prefer DLR over WDW. In Central Florida, you essentially do theme-park-a-go-go for a week, which is fine, but in SoCal you can do DLR for half a week and a selection of a zillion other things with the other half (which is how we usually work it).
Originally Posted By woody >>Compared to what? Compared to other theme parks? It's still the best quality, and yes it's more expensive.<< That's debatable, but this thread is debating Disney's old and current standards and it isn't measuring up. >>A week at DLR or WDW compared to a week in London? Apples and oranges.<< Of course it is so why are you doing it? There are many valid comparisons to vacations in the U.S. or where the dollar is stronger. Your dollar will go farther if you can avoid the typical traps that come with a Disney vacation like the high admission costs, food costs with lack of choice, and other factors like park hours and a limited entertainment schedule. If you do want a vacation in the Orlando area, I have learned a few things. 1. Never stay on Disney property. Everything is cheaper elsewhere. 2. Expand your horizons. It is more enjoyable to see other parks and entertainment. 3. Visit only 1 or 2 Disney theme parks and perhaps one water park. Except for EPCOT, the other theme parks seem awfully incomplete and are not worth seeing every single visit. 4. Definitely visit Universal or Sea World or the Space Center. If you prefer DLR, then the issue of seeing DL is rather a non-issue. There isn't enough to do in Disneyland for a whole week as it is. Southern California has many other things to do. In contrast, Orlando is basically a Disney town.
Originally Posted By woody One note, I have visited London. The prices there are off the charts, but you can find good deals if you know where to look... so may be the comparison isn't so Apples and Oranges. You do get a valuable experience in London that you can't get at a Disney theme park, which why I argue that it's a good idea to seek alternative vacations. Nonetheless, a Disney vacation is special as well, but you should know it isn't what it used to be.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle I don't quite get your point, Woody. You're saying people should try other vacation spots. Most people (including Dave, who I assume you're directing your comments towards) HAVE vacationed elsewhere. I don't think there are too many people out there who've never travelled anywhere except DLR and WDW. Also, I don't know why you'd keep going back if you really think it's so juvenile (I assume you DO keep going back due to being on these boards). FWIW, I appreciate Disneyland more now than I did when I was 6.
