Originally Posted By fkurucz >>The US auto industry sold more cars in China this year than the US.<< Bear in mind that the average car sold in China is much cheaper than the average car sold in the US (about $5000 IIRC). Plus there is no doubt in my mind that once the Chinese brands become more competitive that the Chinese gov't will gently push the foreign brands out of the country.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn I just returned from Hong Kong, Zhoungshan China, Shenzhen China, and Taipei Taiwan. Summary in comparison to the USA: we are ~decades~ behind. The sheer volume of manufacturing, capability, and labor is simply unmatchable. Unfortunately, there is only one hope America could possible have to truly compete: Slash corporate tax burdens and slash minimum wages. Otherwise, raise tariffs and prepare for massive price increases of everything.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Summary in comparison to the USA: we are ~decades~ behind.<< It depends on what yardstick you use. My employer has a campus in Beijing. When our Chinese colleagues come to visit, they marvel at what to them is the unbelievably clean air in smoggy Denver, and that it's safe to drink the tap water. China has paid a terrible price in their quest to become "the world's factory". >>Unfortunately, there is only one hope America could possible have to truly compete: Slash corporate tax burdens and slash minimum wages.<< And yet Germany has remained a manufacturing powerhouse without engaging in the race to the bottom. Why can't we?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Slash corporate tax burdens and slash minimum wages>> Are you really calling for people to be paid less? Seriously? Do you really want America to turn into China? Are you willing to take a pay cut to be more competitive?
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn I'm not calling for it, but China will rule manufacturing otherwise. It is unfortunate. I concur with the smog too. Zhoungshan is second-world nasty, and so is the water. Revolting. However Shenzhen was a "Special Economic Area" (enterable via a checkpoint) It is a glorious city of the future and very clean. Taiwan is very American, and beyond prepared for competition.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn Ahh, and I went by the Disneyland Hotel in Hong Kong too Tiny, but nice.<a href="http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4438516044572.183100.1339385770&type=3&l=0494ed46a9" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/media/...94ed46a9</a>
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I'm not calling for it, but China will rule manufacturing otherwise< Again I ask, how is it that Germany remains a manufacturing juggernaut without destroying its environment and forcing its people into virtual slavery? >>However Shenzhen was a "Special Economic Area" (enterable via a checkpoint) It is a glorious city of the future and very clean.<< IIRC, Shenzhen is the home of Foxconn, where distressed Chinese were committing suicide. Don't let the tall skyscrapers fool you, not all is well with China. As far as cleanliness, the Hong Kong suburb of Shenzhen is an exception. China as a whole is an ecological disaster, and the average monthly wage is still only a few hundred dollars a month. Not the bright beautiful future we want. Meanwhile, the average monthly wage in Taiwan is much higher, about $1600 USD.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I'm not calling for it, but China will rule manufacturing otherwise<< China relies on Americans and Europeans to buy their wares. Their economy is utterly dependent on exports. If our wages fall to their levels, who will buy all the stuff? People making $300 a month don't buy flat panel TVs and other stuff.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn <<Again I ask, how is it that Germany remains a manufacturing juggernaut without destroying its environment and forcing its people into virtual slavery?>> Explain how Germany is a manufacturing juggernaut? I'm not contending that it is or isn't. I just don't experience a Germany advantage?
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn <<Don't let the tall skyscrapers fool you, not all is well with China. As far as cleanliness, the Hong Kong suburb of Shenzhen is an exception. China as a whole is an ecological disaster, and the average monthly wage is still only a few hundred dollars a month. Not the bright beautiful future we want. Meanwhile, the average monthly wage in Taiwan is much higher, about $1600 USD.>> Agreed. Don't let the niceness of Shezhen fool you. Distressed worker suicides are apparant all throughout China, not just Foxconn (for a variety of reasons). Foxconn just gets all the press. I met with an American in Hong Kong that does business in China for making parts that get shipped to the US. He claims that it is significantly easier to start a business in China than the US. The government (even Communist) goes over the top in accommodating his needs. His workers get paid well for the area, get great benefits, and are very aggressive is satifying their customers. The culture over there is just so contrasting to American. Very little evidence of thugs or people not willing to contribute. Trust me, I by no means want to become China. I'm just telling you, after being there, you really get a strong sense (including in Taiwan where wages and freedom are higher) by culture and capability, America is very far behind. It will require a mammoth undertaking to catch up.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Not the bright beautiful future we want.<< I think what mrkthompsn is saying is that, guess what, America? You gets none what you want. As long as there are other countries willing and able to do the work at a sliver of the cost of doing it here, there is no bright beautiful future (at least in manufacturing) for the USA. Sometimes what you want isn't available.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer "As long as there are other countries willing and able to do the work at a sliver of the cost of doing it here, there is no bright beautiful future (at least in manufacturing) for the USA." Or, as long as there are billionaires in the US who don't think they have enough money, manufacturing jobs will be shipped overseas at the expense of American workers. Caterpillar has record profits right now, but their employees haven't seen a pay raise in six years.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda Not just the billionares, but the average stock holders wanted more and more of a return on their investments.
Originally Posted By HRM ^^^^ arn't a large % of stockholders average people with savings in 401k and IRA's?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>arn't a large % of stockholders average people with savings in 401k and IRA's?<< No. They had to clean those out to pay the mortgage.
Originally Posted By queenbee A smaller percentage of Americans now have a stake in the stock market than at any point since May 2000, Gallup announced on Thursday. The research polling center, which has been monitoring stock ownership since 1999, reported that only 54 percent of Americans said they own "individual stock, a stock mutual fund or in a self-directed 401(k) or IRA." <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/21/stock-market-us-real-estate-gallup_n_851786.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...786.html</a> This article is from 2011, so about half of Americans participate in some way in the stock market.
Originally Posted By HRM ^^^^ ok, about 50% have money in the stock market... That's still alot; a lot of people who have a vested interest in making sure American businesses make money and have profits. I don't see the majority of Americans saying they are willing to pay MORE for products amd sevices exclusively originating in the USA. I go back to iPods and iPads... does anyone think they would be the drivers of growth and profit for Apple if they were manufactured in the USA?
Originally Posted By HRM from the Huffington Post article: >> "Who does play the stock market has become intensely stratified, too, as 87 percent of Americans making over $75,000 own stocks. Republicans, men and postgraduates are also much more likely to hold stocks or mutual funds than Democrats, women and less-educated people, respectively." << hmmmm....
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< ok, about 50% have money in the stock market... That's still alot; a lot of people who have a vested interest in making sure American businesses make money and have profits. >>> Actually, those with a direct vested interest are more than just those with a direct investment. For example, anyone that's banking on receiving a private pension from their employer someday has a vested interest in that employer's continued well-being and profitability.
Originally Posted By andyll <<I go back to iPods and iPads... does anyone think they would be the drivers of growth and profit for Apple if they were manufactured in the USA?>> Yes. At least assembled here. Apple has over 100 Billion in cash. Most of that is overseas because they are hoping republicans take control in the next election and they can bring it back without having to pay USA taxes on it. The last excuse I heard from Apple was that the assembly plants have to be in Asia to be close to the parts suppliers. Not sure if that is still the excuse since they opened an assembly plant in South America
