Originally Posted By leemac <<Those attractions have been disappearing for a decade. But you do seem to have a special attatchment, if that's the correct word, for Tom. >> Yes I do. I regard Tom as a very good friend. <<You rip Cynthia Harriss, for example, as much or more than many here.>> I did not like the woman at all. All show and no substance. And I mentioned that on numerous occasions when she was still in office. I was surprised that Paul brought her in and I told him so. <<Perhaps, if you didn't appear to feel that every Disney exec is doing a dandy job, it would be easier for me to find a common ground with you because it's obvious we agree on far more than we disagree. There are a few execs in Orlando who need to be shown the door as they appear clueless as to what a Disney park is all about.>> The reason I take issue is that it is easy to saw "Fitzgerald and Goodman out". Having first-hand experience I believe they are both doing the best job they (or anyone) could possible do. But they are easy online targets as the senior guys at WDI. They both get blamed for things that didn't happen under their watch. I tell you one thing I find interesting. I've known (and still keep in contact with) the Pressler family for many years. I have always enjoyed spending time with Paul and felt he generally got a bad rap in the fan community. Often because he wasn't as "handsy" as Cynthia. HONESTLY I have lost count how many CMs I've spoken to in the past year that miss Paul both personally and professionally. The number is in the dozens.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj While we may have nostalgic thoughts for the "old" EPCOT, the truth is that it just wasn't very engaging for the average WDW guest -- particularly those with young children in tow. Now, I suppose Disney could disregard their primary audience and keep EPCOT full of lengthy, slow-paced attractions that are more akin to a ride-through museum exhibit. However, I think the approach they have taken in the past several years -- to include faster paced, thrilling, and interactive attractions -- is a far better approach to involve the young people and teenagers who otherwise would not be visiting EPCOT at all.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ even if true a very sad commentary on the way we approach 'education' of kids any more-- forget substance, just give em thrills
Originally Posted By mrichmondj There was very little, if any educational value in the previous incarnation of EPCOT pavillions. A series of animated dioramas and vignettes desribint the history of transportation, communication, etc. doesn't equal education. I am happy with Spaceship Earth remaining the signature EPCOT attractions, but to be honest, World of Motion and Horizons weren't much more than a rehash of the same ride experience. I don't know what educational concept was supposed to be learned in Journey to Imagination -- it was a cute attraction, which was exactly the way it was originally intended since it was essentially the only attraction designed in the original EPCOT for families with grade school age children. I like the new version of EPCOT. Now, we just need to move on to World Showcase and inject some energy there.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "So the following aren't Disney quality to you?" None of them, except Soarin, would make my list of top 10-15 WDW attractions. <<HISTA>> is very old and tired. It is based upon a movie that opened in 1989. It also isn't nearly as good as the two films that were there before. <<Soarin>> I've already prasied this many times. <<Turtle Talk with Crush>> Fun, but in no way a major attraction. And appeals far more to 7-year-olds who won't get tired of hearing 'Dude' and 'CHa' 289 times in 15 minutes. <<Ellen's Energy Adventure>> I enjoy it, but feel it isn't measurably better than the original. <<Mission:SPACE>> Great thrills. But theming is bare-bones. And it's just one quick thrill (one that many people can't tolerate). Compare it to any of the 4-5 Space Pavillion designs in the WDI files. They all featured more than one short thrill ride. <<Test Track>> a very mundane and overhyped experince. I may be in the minority on this but I did prefer WoM. "I also think you are seeing the past through rose-colored glasses with your comments about Imagination. It was hardly ever popular. Like all the FW pavilions once the flow of guests reached it (and you have to remember that guests traditionally did FW clockwise beginning at 6pm on the dial as it were) it had a spike but it was never that popular at all. The other Omnimovers were more popular." Leemac, all I can say is I'm pretty sure I was at EC a heck of a lot more than you were in Imagination's heyday. It was quite popular for years. "Symbosis was a snoozefest and Circle of Life added something that the whole family could appreciate. Same for the Living Seas movies and hopefully the new attraction in there will capture a larger audience. Adding Ellen to the Universe of Energy vastly improved it in my view. It was so humorless and dour before." I'm just going to agree to disagree here since it just comes down to opinion. <<Leaving WoL out of the equation also isn't fair on your part because it was a multi-attraction pavillion that a guest could spend hours in. No replacement at all. >> "I wasn't. It is the newest pavilion and is last on the list for refursbishment. Not sure if you had ventured over there in the past few years when it is open but the pavilion was always dead. A tremendous shame as Cranium Command and the Making of Me are exceptional shows." Of course it was dead. Disney had planned on closing it so they stopped opening it daily, took it off park maps and promotional materials and made it seem llike it was already gone. Just like Timekeeper. Just like CoP. Make an attraction virtually invisible. Then show much diminished numbers that justify a business-decision that was already made. Five years from now WoL might be sitting in decay or used for banquets and pin shows.
Originally Posted By t1lersm0m ^^Not that my opinion matters for much, but I think HISTA sucks, I won't ride Mission: SPACE, and have never been on Test Track, although plan to ride this trip. Soarin' at DCA was amazing, so hopefully the mothballs on the one at Epcot won't ruin it. And Ellen's Energy is an attraction we probably won't waste our time on again. We experienced it for the first time in August 2004, and I don't really look forward to repeating it.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney <<Those attractions have been disappearing for a decade. But you do seem to have a special attatchment, if that's the correct word, for Tom. >> "Yes I do. I regard Tom as a very good friend." That's fair enough. But I have friends too, and I know it's far too difficult to be unbiased when friendship enters an equation. <<You rip Cynthia Harriss, for example, as much or more than many here.>> "I did not like the woman at all. All show and no substance. And I mentioned that on numerous occasions when she was still in office. I was surprised that Paul brought her in and I told him so." Have to take your word on that, but I have zero recall of you ripping her here. But she was all show and no substance. And she had no business running DL, or even running DL merchandise. <<Perhaps, if you didn't appear to feel that every Disney exec is doing a dandy job, it would be easier for me to find a common ground with you because it's obvious we agree on far more than we disagree. There are a few execs in Orlando who need to be shown the door as they appear clueless as to what a Disney park is all about.>> "The reason I take issue is that it is easy to saw "Fitzgerald and Goodman out". Having first-hand experience I believe they are both doing the best job they (or anyone) could possible do. But they are easy online targets as the senior guys at WDI. They both get blamed for things that didn't happen under their watch." WDI has been a disaster for years. If you don't blame the people at the highest levels, who do you blame? "I tell you one thing I find interesting. I've known (and still keep in contact with) the Pressler family for many years. I have always enjoyed spending time with Paul and felt he generally got a bad rap in the fan community. Often because he wasn't as "handsy" as Cynthia. HONESTLY I have lost count how many CMs I've spoken to in the past year that miss Paul both personally and professionally. The number is in the dozens." Paul was a very personable guy. I liked him. But I also didn't think he had any business in the theme park business. He was a great retail guy, although even that luster has worn thin with the Disney Store disaster he left behind (clearly not all his fault) and the current situation at the Gap. Paul, IMHO, is a great example of what's wrong at the highest corporate levels of most large companies today. He was a very talented exec in one field, so someone (in this case Michael Eisner) thought he'd do likewise in another business sector that he had ZERO experience in. That wouldn't make sense at the low levels of most businesses. There's no good reason for it, either. You wouldn't take a great plumber and put him in charge of the electric company.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "While we may have nostalgic thoughts for the "old" EPCOT, the truth is that it just wasn't very engaging for the average WDW guest -- particularly those with young children in tow." This is the oldest argument regarding Epcot. It's also, largely, myth. I was close to the original EPCOT Center. People poured into the park in the 1980s and you didn't hear the ''That place was so boring" argument that comes out now. Other than more character appearances, coloring tables in World Showcase and now Turtle Talk, I don't see how Epcot is much more child friendly than it was in the '80s. "Now, I suppose Disney could disregard their primary audience and keep EPCOT full of lengthy, slow-paced attractions that are more akin to a ride-through museum exhibit. However, I think the approach they have taken in the past several years -- to include faster paced, thrilling, and interactive attractions -- is a far better approach to involve the young people and teenagers who otherwise would not be visiting EPCOT at all." Children and teens don't plan most vacations. Parents do. And if anyone seriously thinks teens go to Epcot for thrills, which it IMHO doesn't have any, I wholeheartedly believe that makes no sense.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << This is the oldest argument regarding Epcot. It's also, largely, myth. I was close to the original EPCOT Center. People poured into the park in the 1980s and you didn't hear the ''That place was so boring" argument that comes out now. >> Sadly, I remember hearing those exact sentiments back in 1983 when EPCOT first opened. The only difference between then and now is that Disney was the only game in town as far as Orlando was concerned. Families didn't think too much about making EPCOT part of their Disney vacation. Now that there are a lot of other options, EPCOT needs to be relevant, not a collection of ride-through wax museums.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I don't claim to be a theme park expert, but I know which Epcot my wife and I prefer. In the late mid-late 90's Epcot bored the heck out of us. Several trips, even though we always went for at least a week, we didn't even bother spending one day at Epcot. I feel Epcot really turned the corner as it prepared for the Y2K Celebration. Not just because of new attractions, but because the place seemed to acquire a whole new and more vibrant feel. Now we spend more time at Epcot than any other WDW park. We are always there two full days as well as spending most evenings there after the other parks close.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "Sadly, I remember hearing those exact sentiments back in 1983 when EPCOT first opened. The only difference between then and now is that Disney was the only game in town as far as Orlando was concerned. Families didn't think too much about making EPCOT part of their Disney vacation. Now that there are a lot of other options, EPCOT needs to be relevant, not a collection of ride-through wax museums." I'll just let EC's attendance numbers in its first decade do the talking. Not to mention all the positive press, from real hard media as sites like this were years from being created. As a local, I can tell you in no way was Disney the only game in town for tourists. The biggest and best, but not the only. Sea World was around. It even had a shopping and dining zone across the street, whose name escapes me. Wet and Wild too. Busch Gardens was also around, albeit a 70-minute drive. ANd since you mentioned wax museums, there was the MovieLand Wax Museum. There were also plenty of local places with local taste/texture from GatorLand to Silver Springs to Cape Canaveral. It wasn't all theme parks, strip centers, timeshares and outlet stores. A WDW vacation 20 years ago was a whole lot different than it is today. Let's not forget that a vast majority of visitors back then weren't staying on property and weren't captives to Disney for all their vacation dollars. People want to paint the original EPCOT Center as a boring, educational failure when that isn't reality. It got tired in the 1990s, but that doesn't mean the original concept was flawed, simply that it required updating, plussing and new attractions.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<This is the oldest argument regarding Epcot. It's also, largely, myth. I was close to the original EPCOT Center. People poured into the park in the 1980s and you didn't hear the ''That place was so boring" argument that comes out now.>> But isn't the reason Disney started to change so much of EPCOT is because attendance was starting to deline? Guests may have enjoyed the original EPCOT, but were growing tired of the attractions on offer. I think that may be due to the fact that Future World especially, suffers from the same problems as Tomorrowland does: it's near impossible to show the futrue when the future arrives tomorrow. When it does arrive, it's nothing like what was envisioned.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "I don't claim to be a theme park expert, but I know which Epcot my wife and I prefer. In the late mid-late 90's Epcot bored the heck out of us. Several trips, even though we always went for at least a week, we didn't even bother spending one day at Epcot. I feel Epcot really turned the corner as it prepared for the Y2K Celebration. Not just because of new attractions, but because the place seemed to acquire a whole new and more vibrant feel. Now we spend more time at Epcot than any other WDW park. We are always there two full days as well as spending most evenings there after the other parks close." That's an interesting POV, especially considering that World Showcase is essentially the same as it was when you first visited except for a few more shops closed for KidCot coloring spots. So I guess you feel that Test Track, Mission Space and Soarin suddenly made the park worthwhile?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<So I guess you feel that Test Track, Mission Space and Soarin suddenly made the park worthwhile?>> It helped. More than that though, the whole Innoventions Plaza was given life with colorful kinetic sculptures, banners, etc. What had been a very sterile place between two massive concrete buildings now seemed energetic and fun. The exhibits inside the Innoventions buildings also started to make some sense for the first time. There seemed to be a cohesive concept behind the exhibits in each building that was missing before. I think Mission Space is the best theme park attraction ever; Soarin' is an absolute joy; Test Track is the one "thrill" ride at WDW that my wife will actually go one. We also, believe it or not, enjoy the current version of Journey into Imagination more than we enjoyed the original one. World Showcase was helped a lot by the Tapestry of Nations and then the Tapestry of Dreams parades. My wife and I were both sad to see them go, event though they did cause massive traffic jams in the Showcase. The latest Illuminations show has also added much to our enjoyment. Reflections of Earth is the greatest Illuminations ever and we are both huge fans of the soundtrack. As we spent more time in the Showcase due to Illuminations and the parades, we also started to discover interesting things we never noticed before. The museum at the rear of the Japan Pavilion. The garden train setup outside of Germany. The exhibits in the Stave Church at Norway. The wonderful tile work in the meditation room at Morocco. We found ourselves taking time to really see the marvelous details that are to be found throughout the Showcase. So while the attractions you mentioned certainly added to our enjoyment, we saw a major shift in the whole Epcot experience. What had been an interesting but rather sterile park has become a colorful and lively park over the past half dozen years. It is a far better park than the one we visited in the mid 90’s.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 I dont think "new" epcot with its barebones 2 minute "thrill rides" and tie-ins to such loveable pop culture charecters such as Ellen and Bill Nye is anymore "engaging" to wdw guests then old epcot was. Old Epcot at least took itself seriously..new epcot is a mess. I dont know why Disney stoped replacing attractions...with BETTER attractions. the rides that replaced the original epcot rides are not better. The new Imagination ride is disgustingly bad and half the pavillion is rotting away unused. Mission Space is not only a bland and disappointing attraction but it is also getting unwatned bad press towards disney. Test Track is "meh". Ellen's energy adventure is so terrible that I actually cringe when I look at the building and whats with that Stupid wand over SSE and the graveyard at the enterance? So far the only two changes made to Epcot that actually make the park BETTER are ironically the two newest changes...The Land Pavillion revamp with Soarin' and the upcoming Living Seas revival. Although Im not a fan that there making it another Pixar tie-in..it will at least be much closer to what the original pavillion was supposed to be like (with a fantasy dark ride). Its no surprise to me that The Land pavillion and Soarin' is so popular with guests. You know why? Because it was handeled with care and alot of thought. It takes it self SERIOUSLY and IMPROVES the pavillion. Disney put the effort in and it gets rewarded for that. But they need to update Spaceship Earth but do it with care and take it SERIOUSLY. They need to replace Ellen's energy garbage, and do something with test track and mission space. The Imagination Pavillion also needs a retooling and they should look at doing something with the innoventions and odyessy buildings. They also should freshen up World Showcase a bit. Once all thats done Epcot will be a truely amazing place that will bring in the crowds and make everyone happy.
Originally Posted By crazyformickey you know what's funny... The "new" rides most times have at least an hour or more wait. The "older" rides have little wait. I do miss the older rides but I love the new ones. Which is why EPCOT is my second favorite parks.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip You have to admit though... Skellington88 is always good for a chuckle!!
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<I dont think "new" epcot with its barebones 2 minute "thrill rides" and tie-ins to such loveable pop culture charecters such as Ellen and Bill Nye is anymore "engaging" to wdw guests then old epcot was.>> While I miss some of the old attractions very much, I imagine the new ones are getting many more guests to experience them than the ones that went away. <<Old Epcot at least took itself seriously..new epcot is a mess.>> I'd like you to explain how Epcot is any less serious than it was before. <<I dont know why Disney stoped replacing attractions...with BETTER attractions. the rides that replaced the original epcot rides are not better.>> Matter of opinion. While I myself prefer the old WoM to TT, that doesn't mean I am "right." MANY more people enjoy TT than WoM. <<So far the only two changes made to Epcot that actually make the park BETTER are ironically the two newest changes>> Why is it ironic? <<they need to update Spaceship Earth but do it with care and take it SERIOUSLY.>> That's starting to happen, now that Siemen's is the new corporate sponsor. <<They need to replace Ellen's energy garbage>> Not likely to happen; certainly not because you think it's garbace. <<Once all thats done Epcot will be a truely amazing place that will bring in the crowds and make everyone happy.>> Epcot is already an amazing place. While I don't disagree that some new WS attractions would be more than welcome, attendance is as strong as ever. People _are_ happy. I think it's mostly only old-school Disney geeks who are disappointed.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I'll just let EC's attendance numbers in its first decade do the talking. Not to mention all the positive press, from real hard media as sites like this were years from being created. As a local, I can tell you in no way was Disney the only game in town for tourists. >> See that argument just doesn't hold water. Not the only player in town???? Many of us were there is the early '80s as tourists and Disney was the sole reason for going. Not only that but there were only 2 parks. You didn't have 4 theme parks and 2 (excellent) water parks to split your time between let alone all of the off-site stuff. You can play the "local" card all you like but tourists have always been the lion share of WDW's business and even more so in the early '80s when Orlando was a teeny tiny town in the middle of lake country. RT, I'm with you 100% on that assessment. The Millennium was the making of Epcot. It became the high-energy park it should always have been. The sight of the three Tapestry parades setting off at once is something I will always remember.
Originally Posted By leemac <<People want to paint the original EPCOT Center as a boring, educational failure when that isn't reality. It got tired in the 1990s, but that doesn't mean the original concept was flawed, simply that it required updating, plussing and new attractions.>> The point is how do you update a museum without changing the exhibits? Attractions like WoM and Horizons were nothing more than history lessons. How do you change those? Add new scenes every decade? FW was a museum.
