Originally Posted By NJFIREGUY <<I'll just let EC's attendance numbers in its first decade do the talking>> Ok anything new is going to be packed...I went the first month "Stitch" was opened and it was packed. I Remember waiting in a long line for Imagination, living seas, and even yes "El Rio Di Tiempo". I remember going back in the 90's and walking on everything. Obviously the attendance was dropping I dont think it was a secret. As I Said before Rides werent closed because of Crowd Control Issues. (WOM was my favorite ) EPCOT Was then and is now my favorite Park. It Had to Evolve to Survive and IMO it has done that pretty well. Sure there are some exceptions (Imagination for Instance) But you have to believe in time those pavillions will change too.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I think a good anology as to what has happened at EPCOT is the ride Living with the Land. I can remember when you took a leisurely boat ride through different scenes and green houses while the guide gave a very good description as to what was going on. Now only four scenes remain with animatronics ( the four visible from the revolving restaurant ) all the other scenes have been removed and we have TV monitors semi disguised in crates instead. Instead of scientists or lap technicians in the green houses we have cast members wearing white lab coats. The ride itself is hurried at best. This ride/ attraction has in no way been improved. Its been scaled back, way back. I am not in anyway holding anyone on this board responcible. Lee that means you, I want you to know I'm on your side here. But I prefer EPCOT Center over what we have today. I actually liked the direction EPCOT Center was trying to take people. It offered a great educational opportunity for everyone intrested. Now it seems EPCOT wants to downplay an education focus entirely. What I still find disturbing is Disney's insistance in creating rides that have a plot centering around simulating near death experiences. Just a pet pev of mine.
Originally Posted By englishboy quote: <The "new" rides most times have at least an hour or more wait.> This is because the newer rides have a much slower through-put than the old rides. Say what you want about the old omnimover systems, but they can move a great number of people in-and-out of an attraction quickly and with efficiency. That there are lines for rides, such as TT, does not necessarily mean that more guests visit this ride than, say, SSE. You'd have to get the ride totals to make any meaningful comparison. Cearly Figment's Imagination Mess is having trouble drawing guest numbers. But I think you'd be surprised how many guests move through SSE and Listen to the Land compared with TT or M:S. The lack of a 60 line may have more to do with total through put than with a lack of guest interest.
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Originally Posted By sun-n-fun There was about a ten year period when I didn't go to WDW (93 - 03). But in 03 and even now, it seemed the same as when I first saw it.
Originally Posted By TheRedhead "I feel Epcot really turned the corner as it prepared for the Y2K Celebration. Not just because of new attractions, but because the place seemed to acquire a whole new and more vibrant feel." I know this sentiment has already been seconded, so I'll go ahead and third it. It's hard for me to put my finger on it, and if you point out the attractions that opened during the millenium, it doesn't seem like there was much of a tangible change at EPCOT. But the park felt ALIVE suddenly, something EPCOT never felt (for me) before. There had always been something so serious about the park. Once you entered the pavilions, you were allowed to laugh. But outside was all sterile and concrete. And I never even noticed this until the mil. celebration. I visited the park with a friend for five days in 2000. Before, we would spend MAYBE a day in EPCOT. But that visit we easily spent a third of the time at EPCOT. Maybe the extra crowds helped give it a different vibe, but it was my favorite park that trip - something that never happens. I did go to EPCOT with my wife in 2002, which was my last visit to the park, and still seemed to be holding on to the vibe. And it's not a sum of its attractions. It was all atmosphere.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney This debate can go on endlessly, and likely will in this thread in others. For most people it comes down to whether you liked (or even visited the original EPCOT Center with its cohesive theme) or the current Epcot, which tries to be a whole lot of different things under the umbrella label of being Disney's Discovery Park. Maybe they'll change the name to DDP. It worked wonders with DCA. I don't prefer today's Epcot, which is a mere shadow of what once existed. I don't find quick thrills -- that aren't in my opinion -- or character experiences and empty real estate and mothballed attractions superior to what once existed. If people do, more power to them. I well realize I am in the minority on Test Track, but I have never seen a more overhyped, boring supposed E-Ticket experience in my life. As to Leemac's assertion that I'm playing the local card. I could say he's playing the WDI card or the I have a business/lifestyle that depends on WDW and TWDC. He's said in more than one post here that he doesn't like my home. He never has. Never will. He comes to WDW. Not to Orlando. I don't know if he's even visited the other theme parks in the area or not. He comes to WDW. That's fine. Many people do. But when he insinuates that tourists went to EPCOT Center in the 1980s and 90s basically because they had no other choice, that's complete horse manure. WDW has always been the No. 1 draw to Central Florida. It always will be. But before it became the monster it is now most people visited it as part of a Central Florida vacation or a Florida one. They weren't tied down to the resort. They drove off-site. They went to Clearwater and the beaches or the Kennedy Space Center. They went to Sea World. They went to Gator Land. They may have taken in our wildlife on a swamp tour. But their whole vacation was simply days full of endless character meals, pintrading and scheduling days with FastPass. Even people who went to WDW only had a vastly different experience that also included relaxing (imagine that on a WDW vacation now), spending a day or two just swimming or playing tennis or riding horses or shopping. Leemac has made it perfectly clear he doesn't hold locals and APer in high esteem, whether it be in Orlando, Anaheim or Tokyo. They aren't blinded by the magic. They understand what life is like living with the Mouse. They also have a nasty tendancy to expect a whole lot more than a family visiting from Boise, Liverpool or New Jersey. They notice every cutback in quality, every change for the worse, and they tend to complain. That's why Disney execs, like Lee's buddies, tend to hold APers in lower regard than they hold their regular guests (and they don't exactly hold them up high either). I see Epcot as a very watered down version of what it once was. It is getting better now. As Skellington pointed out, Soarin is a great addition (minus the way they aren't keeping the film cleaned, where's TDLFAN when you need him?) and fits well where it was placed. Nemo is going to reinvigorate the Seas and that's a very good thing. But I won't have blinders on. I look at Imagination and want to puke. They ruined an attraction and wasted millions. They closed the second level and probably use it to store plush. WoL is DOA. Innoventions has some good stuff, but a lot of stuff you can see at the local Circuit City without paying $63 a day to enter. There have been no substantial changes to World Showcase. It was originally supposed to keep growing with new pavillions being added, but that's about as likely to happen as us seeing gas below $2 a gallon ever again. And this far into the post and I haven't even mentioned the wand yet? I'm sure it's magical and I just don't get it. I understand the Millennium marketing celebration pulled people into Epcot. It got Epcot's VP a huge promotion to Anaheim where he became the first of Cynthia's fallguys. But it wasn't built around much. A wand. A great new version of Illuminations, which has overstayed its welcome. A wonderful parade, but one that was way too repetitive. And, as Roady pointed out, some added kinetics to the Innoventions Plaza. And how can I forget, pintrading. Nothing substanital. Nothing of great expense. Just a few things to market and get Epcot's numbers up. It worked. Now, I'd like to see more substance.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << A great new version of Illuminations, which has overstayed its welcome. >> Huh? I guess you mean it wasn't all that great then?
Originally Posted By leemac <I am not in anyway holding anyone on this board responcible. Lee that means you, I want you to know I'm on your side here. But I prefer EPCOT Center over what we have today. I actually liked the direction EPCOT Center was trying to take people. It offered a great educational opportunity for everyone intrested. Now it seems EPCOT wants to downplay an education focus entirely.>> Tom that is perfectly fine. EC has been my baby since I first visited in '82. It is still my baby but I'm happy with the changes. I guess I have grown-up with the park, for better or worse. And LDD, I don't like Central Florida. I'm not fond of the place or the people. I have gone to the area for the past 25 years solely for WDW. I haven't visited another theme park since IoA opened (and it bored me senseless) and don't have any plans to visit another any time soon. That is my choice. There are plenty of places I don't go to out of choice. I don't have a lot of choice with Orlando. I fly into MCO and are driven to property where I stay for the duration.
Originally Posted By leemac <<That's why Disney execs, like Lee's buddies, tend to hold APers in lower regard than they hold their regular guests (and they don't exactly hold them up high either).>> That is why this sounds like a disgruntled ex-cast member. Walt Disney Parks & Resorts management hold their guests in low regard? What a crock.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney << A great new version of Illuminations, which has overstayed its welcome. >> "Huh? I guess you mean it wasn't all that great then?" No. I find the show phenomenal. The best nighttime pyro show at WDW. But I also believe it's time for something new. ROE was developed for the Millennium. It's now 2006. If I'm living in the past because I enjoy Omnivover and AA-filled attractions over alleged thrill rides like Test Track, then I'd say people who want to see the same fireworks show seven years after its debut are doing likewise.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "Tom that is perfectly fine. EC has been my baby since I first visited in '82. It is still my baby but I'm happy with the changes. I guess I have grown-up with the park, for better or worse." I guess you must have birthed it. But Lee, weren't you terribly bored with it at opening? I say that as an ignorant rube who obviously doesn't have the intellectual capability to properly understand and appreciate such wondrous rides as Test Track and Mission Space. "And LDD, I don't like Central Florida. I'm not fond of the place or the people." Really? We all LUV you ;-) And where would you be financially if WDW didn't exist here in our little backwater? "I have gone to the area for the past 25 years solely for WDW. I haven't visited another theme park since IoA opened (and it bored me senseless) and don't have any plans to visit another any time soon." I expected as much. Some of us Disney luvers also greatly enjoy Uni's parks and their devotion to keeping them clean and cutting edge. "That is my choice. There are plenty of places I don't go to out of choice. I don't have a lot of choice with Orlando. I fly into MCO and are driven to property where I stay for the duration." Yes. That is your choice. Everyone who visits WDW and Central Florida doesn't share your viewpoint, thankfully. And many of the people who you don't like in our area, likely wouldn't be here except WDW overexpanded and needed to go find bodies under any/every rock who would be willing to work for next to nothing. The people here used to be a whole lot nicer 15-20 years ago than they are today. The Mouse's huge expansion has a lot to do with that.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "That is why this sounds like a disgruntled ex-cast member. Walt Disney Parks & Resorts management hold their guests in low regard? What a crock." Lee, I've told you many time I'm not a disgruntled ex-CM. That's all I intend to tell you about my personal life. But I have spent more than enough time with many WDW execs, often when they've been drinking, to know what many of them (not all) think of guests. I'd like to share my top three examples, but there's no way they wouldn't be (rightfully) admined as soon as I typed them in. The days of people who cared in the exec suited ended when Dick Nunis left. WDW has never been the same.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Everyone who visits WDW and Central Florida doesn't share your viewpoint, thankfully.>> Try telling that to Universal, Sea World et al who have seen attendance fall off of a cliff since DME was introduced. But then it isn't about Disney, right?
