Originally Posted By leemac <<The press release doesn't have any real details. Of that 25% increase in dining. Not one name was mentioned. Is it possible that even at this point, Disney has few if any vendors/tenants signed up? >> I think it is just caution considering the state of the restaurant industry at the moment. Paradiso 37's owners filed for Chapter 11 in August and there is no certainty that E-Brands will continue to function (the founder created Restaurant Marrakesh in World Showcase). I thought that the new nautical-themed restaurant from Landry's (and designed by Schussler Creative) had already been announced but I guess I'm mistaken.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I don't follow the project too much, but I can tell you that after attending the opening day Giants game, the thing is as ugly as it looks, and it's creepy to walk through the abandoned construction site on the way to/from the stadium. >> I highly recommend Googling up some news articles on it. The entire project has been jinxed from the outset and some of the comments from the developers are priceless.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Fashion Island was once a masterpiece of mid century modern design when it opened in '67, with the mall and big anchor stores designed by architectural heavyweight icons William Pereria and Welton Beckett (who also did the GE Progressland pavilion at the '64 World's Fair for Walt). It was stunning. >> Very true. The problem is that most of the big architect names in the '80s/'90s thought that retail space was beneath them so you ended up with developers doing their own designs. It has only been the explosion of growth in the Middle East and Asia that has seen some stunning retail/entertainment designs. London-based Benoy Architects are my favorite hot designers at the moment. They are behind one of my favorite malls - Elements in Kowloon, Hong Kong. They also did the stunning Ferrari World Abu Dhabi theme park structure. It is a wonderful complex. Jon Jerde is also doing some great work (he did Horton Plaza).
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Like so much of everything else, to me the problem is that are just too many retail spaces -- built by the same design teams -- and they all start looking the same. I thought The Grove was really cool when it opened next to Farmers Market. Beautiful buildings, wonderful Disney looking double decker trolley. Really fun. But then, the same firm goes over the hill and builds that other one in Glendale. Neat architecture, Disney-like transportation. And extremely swanky stores. And now, it seems that every mall in the country has that 'new' outdoor section being added to their existing 70s/80s mall. So, after a while, it gets boring to look at.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> I've looked at Winter Park, and the Morse Museum looks interesting with it's Tiffany glass collection. But there just doesn't seem to be a whole lot there in Winter Park. No gentrified funky neighborhood in downtown Orlando to explore? Is it really just all about theme parks and tourist-malls and Rainforest Cafe corporate dinners in Orlando? The locals must have a warped sense of reality, the poor dears. << The Morse is actually a very nice art museum, and the Mennello Museum of American Art has a nice collection of Earl Cunningham folk art and often has temporary exhibits. I don't know what your obsession is with "funky neighborhoods" (nor do I pretend to know what you mean by that--is Dupont Circle in DC a "funky neighborhood"? Is Little Five Points in Atlanta?). But Orlando has several attractions outside of the theme parks, and if one was willing to drive to either coast, they'd find even more cultural attractions. So to answer your question, again: "Is it really just all about theme parks and tourist-malls and Rainforest Cafe corporate dinners in Orlando?" No, it's not TP. The only locals who have a "warped sense of reality" are the few who move here to work for the Mouse only to learn they're working for the Rat. The rest of us quite enjoy what Central Florida has to offer.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^^^ I have to agree with you. However, for more than a few, the theme parks are the main draw. No denying.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 it's never enough -- if they announced anything - and Imean anything and it was met with widespread accptance I would then know that the Incan's were right and 2012 was the end of the world. Nothing is ever perfect but it sure looks like a major improvement to me and certainly better than what is there today. I don't find DTD empty - ever And if they spent more here than this - the bemoaning of lack of park attractions would start -- oh well- I would have liked to have seen AC incorporated also but like the fact they are looking to increase vibe there and don't just plow it all under and focus on the parks
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^ I have to agree with you. However, for more than a few, the theme parks are the main draw. No denying ----- for most visitors this is true - not to offend anyone. Having spent a ot of time on the east coast - especially the treasure coast area - like most parts of the country there is plenty to see of interest outside of theme parks. But for 1-2 weeks a year the theme parks are the destination of most who travel to central Florida. There are other parts of the country that attract history seekers far more - especially in the northeast
Originally Posted By dshyates The thing that people forget about Orlando is that when WDW opened in '71, Orlando was a town of about 90,000. It really is unfair to complain that Orlando doesn't have a lot of older funky neighborhoods and compare it to a city like San Diego. Really, the only city in America that Orlando can be compared to is Las Vegas. "The City of Orlando" is trying very hard to breath life back into the downtown. They just opened the new Amway Center right next to Church Street. Chuch St. has gotten a bunch of new restaurants. A new N'awlins/Cajun place called Mojo's just opened in the old Rosie O'Grady's Good Time Emporium. And there are a lot of people downtown every night and the weekends can get really crowded. Winter Park's downtown is quite nice, albiet small. It has retained that cool upscale-ish Florida vibe. And as others have said venture out to either coast and there is a lot to see/do like Kennedy Space Center, snorkling with Manatees, Everglade airboat rides, or some very nice beaches. No Cent. FL isn't SoCal. but it has it's charms.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<London-based Benoy Architects are my favorite hot designers at the moment. They are behind one of my favorite malls - Elements in Kowloon, Hong Kong.>> And guess what Spirit happened to be there today? I really have little to add about this project as it is very, very little about nothing. Almost a decade after they decided (internally) to kill PI, they still can't tell you what they are going to replace it with ... except some nebulous 3rd party vendors IF they can sucker them in ... oh and a park and GET THIS ... wider walkways for all the cows on their ECVs and the double wide stroller set. It's just sad. And agree with Lee that it seems so 90s tired already. But slap on the Hyperion name and it somehow is related to Walt? Sorry, but that ship sailed a long time ago ... time for some new names ... Anyway ... just some thoughts from HK ... with some luck I'll be getting out to HKDL soon to check out their Christmas celebration (and stock up on Duffy gifts for the fanbois left at home) before heading on to some Disney resort in Tokyo in mere weeks!
Originally Posted By WDWVacationer For those of you saying this style of retail sialded away with the 90s, but want the clubs back need to realize that the clubs left with the 90s too. Clubs are closing all over America and being replaced with.....RESTAURANTS.
Originally Posted By leemac <<And guess what Spirit happened to be there today? >> And if you'd look skywards about 45 stories you would have seen me. You were at Elements you were uber-close to me today.
Originally Posted By leemac <<For those of you saying this style of retail sialded away with the 90s, but want the clubs back need to realize that the clubs left with the 90s too. Clubs are closing all over America and being replaced with.....RESTAURANTS.>> I don't think anyone is advocating a return to the old PI. I must admit that I think the true failure of PI was its location - when they decided to expand into the West Side it seems out of place having two family-friendly locations sandwiching the bar/club complex. I think PI would have been better being away from the Marketplace and West Side. It also didn't help that they stop renovating the spaces - all of the clubs were pretty dingy in the end. There should be a place for adult-only entertainment (and I'm not advocating a Disney version of Spearmint Rhino!) somewhere - it is just a shame that it doesn't fit into the current mantra of WDW Co. And clubs are closing because they are typically single units or small chains. They can't survive in this economy. The majority are being replaced by chain restaurants that can afford to build for the long term. Clubs and bars will rebound as soon as the economy does.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>oh well- I would have liked to have seen AC incorporated also but like the fact they are looking to increase vibe there and don't just plow it all under and focus on the parks<<< Honestly, you think that us "fanbois" are so difficult to appease.... We want the same thing you do. A unique offering that makes the mall something more.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 >>I don't think anyone is advocating a return to the old PI. I must admit that I think the true failure of PI was its location - when they decided to expand into the West Side it seems out of place having two family-friendly locations sandwiching the bar/club complex. I think PI would have been better being away from the Marketplace and West Side.<< At risk of disagreeing with an expert, this is one point I don't agree with! While I didn't like the split of West Side from Market place (all that walking and limited options on the West Side often resulted in skipping West Side entirely), I don't think that adult entertainment needs to or should be isolated from all else. We aren't talking about naughty "adult" entertainment here. We are talking about clubs. When PI was still going reasonably strong, I had a small child and no sitters. While I never was able to go into the clubs myself, I enjoyed my Market Place shopping with all the lights and sounds and energy of PI across the lagoon (or lake or whatever). It was just fun knowing all those younger/older/childless-for-the-moment folks were having a good time. And I liked knowing that I could soon join them when my child was old enough to go to a kids club or whatnot. It was a terrific back drop, and I never once encountered folks that I was embarassed to have my child see. It did get a little weird when you started being routed through the clubs to get to stores and restaurants I wanted to check out. Not a problem per se, just odd and pointless. But I tend to agree with the folks that this was intentional to make the closings more obvious and easier since the decision to shut down had already been made. I think moving all the clubs to an isolated area would take something away from them. I would have liked to stroll through the shops with my husband and then say, hey let's try that AC that everyone talks about! Go in for a couple drinks, but still leave in an hour or so. I don't think you want it to be a place where you have to commit the whole evening to a "bar night." Lot's of parents would never choose to go then. I personally would feel that it wasn't intended for me. Not that any of this really matters now!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 The problem is those who are not in theclubs 'for a few' -- it was those there for many more than that and as Leemac said- sandwhiched between two totally family geared areas. It doesn't take that many to cause issues- and I found Friday and Saturday nights especially had crowds more geared toward clubbing than those parents looking to roam a bit and have a cocktail or two. Just my observations over all my years of attendance
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper I've said it once, I'll say it again, if Disney has a problem with drunks, then WS would be dry. Many, many more obnoxious drunks in Epcot than in PI. Disney saw the rent check money and jumped the gun.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> They just opened the new Amway Center right next to Church Street. << Went to a Magic game last week and must say the new arena is a beaut. Disney Parks (bleh) is one of the sponsors of the arena. When we entered the building, we were greeted by a gigantic series of Disney Parks murals with TOT, DAK Lodge, and several others. During the game they had advertisements for the FL Residents Pass which featured Tinkerbell on the enormous screen that hangs over mid-court. Went to a Magic game last season and don't recall seeing the same Disney presence. Anyway, really nice place to watch a basketball game. (And a pleasant "funky" [that's for TP2000] Caribbean cafe across the thoroughfare from the arena.)
Originally Posted By SeventyOne <I don't think anyone is advocating a return to the old PI. I must admit that I think the true failure of PI was its location - when they decided to expand into the West Side it seems out of place having two family-friendly locations sandwiching the bar/club complex. I think PI would have been better being away from the Marketplace and West Side. It also didn't help that they stop renovating the spaces - all of the clubs were pretty dingy in the end.> I agree with both your points--especially the stagnation of the clubs, death to a place like Motion or Mannequins, but even noticable in the AdvClub and Comedy Warehouse. However, I don't think West Side was originally intended to be "family friendly." I think the intention was to create a more sophisticated/upscale shopping and dining area to compliment PI--not unlike the sophisticated/upscale shopping and dining to be offered at Hyperion Wharf. It didn't work at West Side, I see even less reason to believe it will work this time around.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I've said it once, I'll say it again, if Disney has a problem with drunks, then WS would be dry. Many, many more obnoxious drunks in Epcot than in PI.>> Definitely don't agree with you there Hokie. PI attracted a lot of the expense account crowd and could be a very unpleasant place to be - particularly for families. You don't typically see that crowd at Epcot as their goal is solely to get drunk - and park admission is a lot of beer. Personally I would have just made the whole place for over 21s. I wasn't advocating pushing PI to some far corner of the resort but having it right next to the Marketplace just didn't work IMHO. SeventyOne - I think you are entirely right that the goal of West Side was to go more "upscale" but I do think it was still supposed to be closer in kin to the Marketplace. The problem was that my putting DisneyQuest at the heart of the expansion they were attempting to draw families. Architecturally West Side just looked like everything else that was springing up at the time - big soulless mega-eateries and retailers in big anonymous boxes. It feels very Michael Graves-inspired - but without the details.
