Originally Posted By Ursula Would having a third party change anything, or would it dilute our passions, I wonder? I am new to politics. I tried to be interested in them prior to this election, but found them boring and dull. I was completely lost when Bush was elected twice on what I viewed as false elections. (Not opening that can, but stating my disillusionment background.) I now really enjoy learning about politics. And I truly enjoy hearing both sides. Do what I did and grow a thick skin, don't be afraid to state your opinion and defend it as needed and be prepared to change or back down as needed when the facts are presented. Battleground isn't the right word. We're not fighting each other, we are fighting for a better U.S.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster I think some people have a hard time discussing contentious topics such as politics or religion (or DCA) because they aren't fully aware of why they have the positions they have. These are the first people who cry when they are questioned or confronted, fully believing they've been attacked. If an individual tells me that their moral beliefs should become laws that restrict my life--that is a REAL attack. Conservatives are enacting laws and constitutional amendments to allow Christians (mostly) to impose their moral codes on non-Christians. That is exactly the kind of separation-of-church-and-state stuff the Founding Fathers tried to prevent. It tickles me that Conservatives think they are the true patriots. They are the ones who have trashed our military. They have stood behind torture, falsifying intelligence to start a preemptive war, the treasonous act of outing a CIA agent, and illegally spying on American citizens. You can wear the flag and be called a patriot while you try and tear down everything that flag represents. The current crop of conservative Christian leaders are bent on trashing the constitutional rights and freedoms they they find distasteful. They then fight for gun rights or capital punishment or preemptive war. Would Jesus own a gun? Would Jesus approve of the death penalty? Would Jesus tap your phone? Would Jesus torture a Muslim in Gitmo? The conservative Christians that allegedly cherish life supported enthusiastically sending our young men to die needlessly in Iraq, taking tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis with them. They fight national health care which would save the lives of thousands of of their fellow citizens just because it would cost them a little more money. I'm not speaking for anyone else here but if some of us are passionate here about trashing conservative ideals it's because they hurt people in the real world. I'm not saying anyone who is conservative is necessarily a bad person. Not at all. I simply have yet to find one who can explain to me why his rights are superior to mine.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***If an individual tells me that their moral beliefs should become laws that restrict my life--that is a REAL attack. Conservatives are enacting laws and constitutional amendments to allow Christians (mostly) to impose their moral codes on non-Christians. That is exactly the kind of separation-of-church-and-state stuff the Founding Fathers tried to prevent.*** How very true! Great post, Churro.
Originally Posted By barboy /// The "post-partisan" candidate who hasn't had a bad word to say about his opponent in this entire election campaign./// If true that is way too cool--- but I'm not so sure......it looks like Obama holds that McCain is a repackaged Bush and we all know 'thems be some fiten words round these parts'.
Originally Posted By Mr X Since McCain truly is a repackaged Bush (or at least 90-95 percent of one), I really don't see what the issue is. Still doesn't indicate that he's saying "a bad word" about his opponent (bad as Bush is, and reason why they should take a hike come January), just pointing out the obvious, clear facts.
Originally Posted By barboy You know utahjosh I really feel I need to tell you that zuux's post was no attack on you. Why not try to see from where he comes.... zuux, being an alert and passionate liberal, has seen enough disastrous oval office policy, republican shenanigans and church sponsored oppression to last him 3 life times in just the last 8 years alone.
Originally Posted By Mr X Honestly, I feel as though Josh was looking for "an attacker", and as soon as one came around (a scapegoat, in other words), Josh released an earful of his righteous indignation whether it was called for or not. At least, that's how it seems to me (and considering how many people have commented on how unreasonable Josh seems to be acting, and with no reply from him...well, that sort of plays into my theory anyway).
Originally Posted By utahjosh I was not looking for an attack. I felt that zuux's post was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I started this thread to talk about the big picture, and gad turned it into yet another "here is why i'm right and you're wrong" post, even though it was a meaningful and well-thought out post.
Originally Posted By Mr X While I appreciate your original sentiment, I also think that Gad made a very telling, interesting counterpoint here... ***You can't very well participate in suppression of people and civil rights and support regressive policies of division, and then say "I'm tired of all the 'right and wrong' talk".*** Thing is, Josh, some of us DO think that what the evangelical segment of politics (particularly GOP..let's be fair) is doing to the rights of other Americans IS wrong/bad/unconstitutional/unfair/etc etc... I don't think you can swing the argument the other way around on this one. So, for you to comment about not caring for the back and forth, while supporting the stuff that crushes the weight of the moral majority on others via laws and lawmakers being cultivated...well, it just doesn't feel particularly right that you should be allowed to say such a thing given the positions you've claimed for yourself, over the years, and largely in the name of your (YOUR) faith. I think you can appreciate that, no?
Originally Posted By Mr X I probably wrote that all wrong, so I'm sorry in advance. I read the comments, and your original comment, over and over...and it's hard for me to formulate a reply which is all things to all people (try to be respectful, and at the same time honest, and at the same time try to consider all points of view, and at the same time try to appreciate the faith aspect of things, etc etc etc...it's just very difficult to reply without SOMEHOW pissing people off, I think).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I felt that zuux's post was in the wrong place at the wrong time.*** On this, I would say that there is NEVER a wrong time or a wrong place to talk about injustice or unfairness. And I think it was entirely reasonable to bring that up here.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I often start out writing about one thing and by the time I'm done it's morphed into something else. My earlier post was one of those. I'm not disavowing it, just saying that I was originally shooting for the 'big picture' that josh was referring to. I hijacked my own post. I started talking about impatience - as a response to the OP who wants a more dispassionate dialog. I was attempting to say that these topics aren't 'academic' or theoretical but that they have real repurcussions. Since the OP was josh, I steered into my latest gripe about the LDS and their support of california's 'proposition 8' to rescind gay marriage by altering the state constitution. It's likely the prop will fail, but the numbers supporting it are artificially high due to the efforts of the mormon church coming into the state like carpetbaggers to rabble rouse. It's a "hot-button" for me. And it's why I want churches taxed - heavily. They're meddling in affairs of state - and not even their own state. If that's the role they want to play, let them pay for the privilege. But see - I'm doing it again. My point is that my original intent with my previous point was to be less specific and address why these topics get so passionate.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Churches in America have largely become fronts for big businesses. They are politically active, for-profit, and tremendously wealthy. They should be taxed. Heavily.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Churches in America have largely become fronts for big businesses. They are politically active, for-profit, and tremendously wealthy.<< On the contrary - most mainstream churches are hurting because of the mass exodus to the Vineyards and Saddlebacks.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Thanks for post 32, gadzuux. I know you are passionate about these issues, but I appreciate your thoughts.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "You just come and ATTACK me and my beliefs (or what you THINK are my beliefs) on a thread I created hoping to bring people TOGETHER and foster PEACE." I know they've more or less kissed and made up here, but to me, this is where Mormons like Josh don't seem to get what their church is doing, namely massively funding personal attacks against people like gadzuux. Gad's gay, rightly unapologetically so, and when a church as huge as the LDS pours money into another state to attack his very being, yeah, I WOULD take it personally and respond in kind if it were me. Josh can agruably leave the Mormon church whenever he decides, whereas gad will forever be gay because that's who he is, that's the way he was born. A church whose God is allegedly telling its leaders this is what HE wants is more of a danger to society than gays ever will be.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Mormons like Josh don't seem to get what their church is doing> I know exactly what my church is doing, probably more than you do.(It's also important to distinguish between "The Church" and "Members-of-The-Church") And I support it. I just see it through different eyes than you do. We disagree. <A church whose God is allegedly telling its leaders this is what HE wants is more of a danger to society than gays ever will be.> I believe in God, and I believe he's at the head of this Church. I know you think we're doing something evil by supporting the marriage amendment. Millions disagee, and millions agree.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I know exactly what my church is doing, probably more than you do.(It's also important to distinguish between "The Church" and "Members-of-The-Church") And I support it. I just see it through different eyes than you do. We disagree." Sorry, but you're clueless. Your church needs to get its ugly backside out of where it doesn't belong. Thankfully, your church is wasting all that money as the amendment is on its way to being voted down.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Sorry, but you're clueless> Again with the attacks. I'm NOT clueless. I know all about this. You are ignorant and clueless about what I know.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I believe in God, and I believe he's at the head of this Church. << And yet, when Road Trip makes insulting, leering comments about Palin in another thread, your response is "You GO Trippy!" They teach you that in church, Josh, or is that all on your own? How dare you lecture ANYone.
