Originally Posted By ecdc >>If you don't want to post it here, would you mind emailing me the title so I can see if I can acquire a copy? I won't likely read it immediately, but I'd like to get it "in my reading pile".<< That's kind of you, but you won't be interested. Promise It's actually the diaries of a high-ranking Mormon leader from around 1890-1920. I arranged them, annotated them, wrote an introduction, etc., but the bulk of the text are the diary entries of an old man. I deal with the issues mentioned (among others) because that was a very transitory time for the church.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Whatever makes you feel better about your understanding of my personal faith...<< So Josh, would you leave the LDS church if the LDS sanctioned same sex marriage?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So Josh, would you leave the LDS church if the LDS sanctioned same sex marriage?> I can't answer that. I would need to evaluate the circumstances, my feelings at that time, answers to prayers I would offer, etc.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I can't answer that. I would need to evaluate the circumstances, my feelings at that time, answers to prayers I would offer, etc.<< Sounds like you're hedging your bets.
Originally Posted By Labuda ecc - ahhh, ok... I thoguht it was something different. Yeah, I'm not interested in reading an old dude's diary so much. hehe
Originally Posted By TomSawyer I don't understand why you'd pray to God for guidance if his own Prophet tells you what God said to tell you.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I don't understand why you'd pray to God for guidance if his own Prophet tells you what God said to tell you.> Because I don't follow blindly. I follow what God tells my heart. So far, he's told me that Thomas S Monson is His prophet. Anytime there is something that doesn't feel right, I'll take that up with God.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Yea... God is God, he is a smart dude. He's smart enough to know that things change over time.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Because I don't follow blindly.<< So what about the people who pray and are told that fundamentalism is correct? Or the people who prayed and God told them that gay marriage is okay? Are they wrong or deceived? And if so, how do you know that you're not wrong or deceived if you pray and God tells you something different from the church?
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Interesting - so the Prophet's statements may or may not come from God? He could be speaking his own opinion on the matter rather than communicating God's will? That could go a long way to explaining the shifts in the LDS on polygamy, the Oath of Vengeance and the status of black members.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<It would only be hypocritical if anyone was saying that the Mormon church's shifting positions were fundamentally different in kind than other churches' shifting positions. As far as I can see, nobody said that, and a couple of us said exactly the opposite.>> Two things: first, I’ve heard this argument in many, many forums (online and offline) so my statement veered from the specific WE audience to include others. Such is the nature of venting, I suppose. So I largely agree here. Secondly, while true I haven’t seen anyone specifically touting their flexible views as superior to Mormons flexible views, it still seems there is a definite intellectual imbalance as to the scrutiny which displays (correct or not) a tacit differential between Mormon’s flexible views being more being more egregious than others. Rather than an error of commission, it’s a frustrating one of omission. The evidence is in the multitude of threads castigating Mormons. Granted, the Mormon church has done much of this to itself by entering into the political arena, much to my chagrin. But it is but one boat on an ocean of vessels that hold very similar societal views. Mormons could not have passed that bill on their own. Thank God the Supreme Court can such right wrongs.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<This, "It comes from Jesus, so it'll never change," is the problem; it absolves human error of responsibility and somehow assigns discrimination to God. So it's worth pointing out the history.>> And I completely agree. I just feel at times that Mormons are pointed out for ideologies that much of Christendom is guilty of. The infallibility of the Pontiff, the “the Bible is the literal Word of God” without qualification crowd, etc. The fact is,. WE ARE ALL FALLIBLE. It was folly that Brigham Young prevented black people from obtaining the priesthood. Joseph Smith actually conferred the priesthood to black people before his death. So, would Jesus change his mind, then change back in 1978? If you are inclined to religious thought (and I’m still on the fence), the answer is no. Thus, the only explanation is human error. And there have been enumerable errors done in the name of God by all religions (Mormons are not immune to this charge). Yet, they seem to get a disproportionate share of the scrutiny for it. Just my humble observation.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Yet, they seem to get a disproportionate share of the scrutiny for it.<< I actually agree. I get exasperated sometimes at the crap Mormons get on these boards sometimes, especially when it's crap most organized religion is guilty of, to one degree or another. I may not be a member anymore, but my family and friends are. And I could rattle off the names of fifty Mormons I know without giving it a second thought who support marriage equality. That said, I understand the anger. So many people didn't know much about Mormons, then Prop 8 hit. Between Prop 8 and the Romney campaign, Mormons are facing a tough reality right now. For years they got by on being nice, nuclear American families, and they told themselves, once people get to know us, they'll like us. Well guess what? People know more about Mormons and Mormonism than ever before, the reporting is more accurate than ever before, and the faith is taken, in some ways at least, more seriously than ever before. And it turns out...a lot of people just don't like Mormons. I think, for the first time, it's dawning on members that the days of coasting by on low expectations (what, they aren't polygamists or Amish-like!?!) and being nice are over. They have to confront the reality that people know more about them than they did before, and they like them less.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I get exasperated sometimes at the crap Mormons get on these boards sometimes<< I will grant that it's a tough room for anyone with religious beliefs, but I'm going to step right up and blame the victim here. I'm sure if this board had anyone constantly saying "Hi, I'm from Assemblies of God, I have God's only everlasting truth, you're all a bunch of libertine heathens, and I'm here to preach at you constantly and not listen to a word any of you say", then the Assemblies of God would be getting more than their fair share of crap as well. The tone of the response to Mormonism here has been right in line with the tone of its self-appointed representative.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The tone of the response to Mormonism here has been right in line with the tone of its self-appointed representative.<< I think that's fair, and what's worse, that self-appointed representative is pretty much your average Joe Mormon. That's what I mean: Mormons act like Mormons and they engender an awful lot of scorn. There's a lot of soul searching going on here in Zion these days.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Yet, they seem to get a disproportionate share of the scrutiny for it. Just my humble observation. " Fair enough. But so is Mawnck's observation here (and I've often defended Josh here even while disagreeing with him). A few years back, it was more Catholicism that got a lot of scrutiny here.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo Yeah. Members often tend to have a Fortress Deseret aura about them. I think part of it is an artifact of the churches history with non-members, i.e., expulsion numerous times, murder, theft, etc. I think another part is the specificity of the churches doctrines (what they should do, shouldn’t do, must do, and can’t do). It opens up more areas of contention with Christians that live a less rigid Christian doctrine---usually superfluously so. At times I feel members have aspirations for martyrdom in some strange 21st century way. Frustrating.
