Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<The people who have been extensively briefed on this, Beau, have basically been saying the soldiers will be found guilty, and the military hasn't refuted them>> How do you know? The soldiers themselves have not been heard from and I have heard all kinds of stories regarding shots fired, a bomb going off, terrorists hiding in houses. Why the rush to demonize these soldiers before all the fact are out? We know why.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Apparently you heard the early, now debunked stories that the military spokesmen are not sticking to any more. The marines initially said, for instance, that the civilians were killed by the ied itself. Until the bodies were shown to have bullet holes. You should read a RECENT story about what the military itself and people like Rep. congressman Kline are saying. It's not just me saying this stuff, Beau - it's them.
Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0" target="_blank">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0</a>,2933,198029,00.html U.S. Troops Cleared of Misconduct in Iraqi Civilian Deaths
Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0" target="_blank">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0</a>,2933,198029,00.html
Originally Posted By JeffG Dirk, you do realize those articles are referring to a completely different incident than the one being discussed, right? -Jeff
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Yes, that's about the incident I referenced in #20. I made the point that what the military spokesman were saying about this case is quite different from their statements (or non-statements) about Haditha, which tells you something.
Originally Posted By alexbook We're a bit off-topic here. The OP asked for an actual Murtha quote (as opposed to a characterization of Murtha and his views). Beau finally provided one in post #16, and it went un-commented upon. Beau: Thanks for finally providing an actual quote (though a bit more info, like a link to the source, might be appreciated).
Originally Posted By Beaumandy No problem. I think all of Murthas quotes should be published. It helps the GOP.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 No one has posted any of Murtha's quotes that "slam the troops, though." Beau thinks he did, but... The first quote is decrying the state of things in Iraq vis a vis the troops - they're living "hand to mouth," i.e. in want of basic things like body armor. This is something the troops themselves complain about. He says they're "broken and worn out" because they're being forced to stay longer than they should, and longer than their original agreements. This is also something the troops themselves complain about. He is on the troops' side here, and complaining about the decisions made in DC that have led to these situations. The second and third quotes about one specific situation, which Murtha has been briefed about extensively (and we have not), and that military spokesmen and at least one Rep. congressman are also saying is going to show those particular troops in a very bad light. That's a far cry from "slamming the troops" in general. You'll have to do better than that, Beau. Still waiting.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Give me a break Dabob. Murtha clearly is saying the Military is waek, broken and they are cold blooded killers. I posted many comments from current Marines and other soldiers who are more than offended by him.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Give me a break Dabob. Murtha clearly is saying the Military is waek, broken and they are cold blooded killers.> No, Murtha is saying what he is saying. That you would like to interpret it differently speaks to you, not to him.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Why are you worried about what "offends" the marines, especially in view of this story? If the allegations are true, there are bigger issues than the delicate feelings of the marines.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Gadzuux, for some reason I'm not in the mod to fight with you today. Your other thread about the Marines and your comments are perfect for me to come in and go crazy. Guess I need a break.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon The Marines accused of atrocities at Haditha have for all intents and purposes been cleared now. And that includes specifically the ones who were libeled on national television by John Murtha. So much for the proclamations made in this thread one year ago, that it was a "done deal" that the Marines at Haditha like Lance Copral Justin Sharratt were guilty.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon "An investigating officer in the case against a U.S. Marine accused of murdering civilians in Haditha, Iraq, has recommended that charges against him be dropped, concluding that the government’s allegations that the Marine executed a group of men are “unsupported and incredible.†Why does the press not find this story newsworthy and why is Congressman Murtha not being grilled about his bizarre grandstanding rush to judgment of more than a year ago?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It's hard to say the press doesn't find this newsworthy when the first place it came up when I googled was the Washington Post. Note that this one guy (Sharratt) was not involved in the initial shootings that day, which have come under greater scrutiny than the later events. From the link and not part of EP's post. "Sharratt, 22, of Canonsburg, Pa., did not take part in the first shootings on Nov. 19, and he has acknowledged killing a group of men in a home later that day, when, he said, he believed they raised weapons at him." (snip) "The first shootings have garnered more investigative attention because they came immediately after a Marine was killed in an explosion and because unarmed people were killed. Sharratt's incident in 2005 came hours later, after Marines swarmed the scene to secure the area. " <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/11/AR2007071100884.html?hpid=topnews" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/11/AR2007071100884.html?hpid=topnews</a> Read the whole link for a much fuller accounting than provided in #34 and 35 (the first of which erroneously claims that "the Marines" have been cleared, rather than just Sharratt probably having been so). Note also that Sharratt's probable exoneration is based on the NCIS essentially believing the word of the marines over those of the Iraqi civilians. It's their right to do so, of course, and it's quite possible all the marines acted properly. It's also possible the military might be taking care of its own and/or not wanting the full truth to come out (see Tillman, Pat). I could buy either scenario.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon I haven't seen this story of Corporal Sharratt's exoneration as a lead story on television. Nor is John Murtha being asked to explain his peculiar insistence on rushing to judgment of the Marines, insomuch as Corporal Sharratt's exoneration isn't going to do much for the rest of this case in the way it was spun by Murtha and the media.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I'm wondering just why someone who is supposedly as learned as Dr. Paddon would waste time digging up a thread that's over a year old on a Disney fan board over something like this. I imagine the only other thing that could give him more thrills would be if somehow someone was involved who was a Christian fundamentalist game show fanatic who got involved in a conspiracy to kill JFK while watching Battlestar Galactica in a Disneyworld hotel room.
Originally Posted By gadzuux <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-chessani12jul12" target="_blank">http://www.latimes.com/news/pr intedition/asection/la-fg-chessani12jul12</a>,1,3778451.story?coll=la-news-a_section Court-martial urged in Haditha case Tony Perry, Times Staff Writer July 12, 2007 (excerpts) CAMP PENDLETON — A hearing officer recommended Wednesday that Marine Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani be sent to court-martial for dereliction of duty in the failure to investigate the shooting deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in the western town of Haditha. Chessani, 43, a former infantry battalion commander, is the highest-ranking officer charged in what is the largest war-crime allegation involving U.S. troops in Iraq or Afghanistan. Chessani's lawyers reacted angrily to the recommendation and said a court-martial would undercut the morale of Marines in Iraq. Richard Thompson, chief counsel of the Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center, which has represented Chessani, said that unless Mattis rejected the recommendation, "ultimately there will be no aggressive military left to defend the life of our nation." Chessani was commander of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, when troops killed 24 civilians, including women and children, on Nov. 19, 2005, after a roadside bomb had killed one Marine and injured two. Marines killed five young men after ordering them out of their car. Nineteen other civilians were killed in three houses as Marines searched for insurgents. The military began an investigation only after Time magazine published a story quoting Iraqi witnesses disputing the Marines' version that the civilians were killed by the roadside bomb and in crossfire. In December, four enlisted Marines were charged with murder, and four officers, including Chessani, were charged with dereliction of duty for not investigating the deaths as possible war crimes. Later, charges were dropped against Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz in the deaths of the five men pulled from their car. In exchange, Dela Cruz will be required to testify against the other Marines, particularly Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, also charged in the deaths of the five. Immunity has also been granted to half a dozen Marines to compel testimony. Article 32 hearings, akin to preliminary hearings, are pending for Wuterich, the squad leader; Lance Cpl. Stephen B. Tatum; Capt. Lucas M. McConnell, the Kilo Company commander; and 1st Lt. Andrew A. Grayson, an intelligence officer. << ----------------------------------------- I'm not sure I understand your point, eric. >> The Marines accused of atrocities at Haditha have for all intents and purposes been cleared now. And that includes specifically the ones who were libeled on national television by John Murtha. << Clearly, your statement is not true - not even a little bit. Twenty four innocent civilians - including women and children - were hauled out of bed in the middle of the night and shot at point blank range in their home. Who did this? WE did, that's who. More specifically, our military - in the form of the marines who have been charged with murder. >> the government’s allegations that the Marine executed a group of men are “unsupported and incredible.†<< Well SOMEBODY killed them - they're dead. That's "supported" and "credible". You think maybe it was the marines that have been charged with the crime? Do you have even an ounce of concern about that? Apparently not - you haven't had a word to say about the victims. Instead, you'd rather have a "gotcha" moment against the US congressman who spoke up and called it for the atrocity that it is. You want HIM "grilled". You call his actions "bizarre grandstanding" yet you don't have a single thing to say about the murder itself. Where's your sense of right and wrong? Murtha isn't the problem here, and if your sense of morality wasn't so skewed, you could see that as easily as everyone else.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I haven't seen this story of Corporal Sharratt's exoneration as a lead story on television. > If all the marines had been exonerated (as you erroneously claimed), it might have been. As it is, one marine with less involvement than the others has probably (not even quite definitively as of yet) been, and the others have still very much not been (indeed, one has just been recommended for court martial - which wasn't the lead story either). Such an ambiguous situation rarely makes the lead story of the evening news. Every time you try to point out "media bias" you end up pointing out your own.
