Originally Posted By jonvn That's because I don't have a crystal ball. What we are doing now does not work. We used to have a system of orphanages in this country that worked better than what we have now. Something needs to change. And if what I'm suggesting, by some off chance, does not work either, then something else needs to be tried. The only thing we do know is that sitting and doing nothing different will guarantee that nothing changes.
Originally Posted By Lisann22 Yep. If you think the attitudes of certain groups of people are bad now. If you think the woe is me lifestyle and sticking it to the man is bad now. Start taking people's children away from them. Obviously, some folks are not remembering a time in this country when we did have orphanages for immigrant children, boarding schools for Indian children or kids seperated from their families during the internment camps. This devastated people for generations to come. This is not a viable option in my eyes.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Start taking people's children away from them." The very fact that you are protesting it so much shows that it would be a very painful thing and something that people would want to avoid. Like prison. This is not even the harshest thing that can be done to people. Forced abortions, forced sterilizations, jail time, forced work, etc. "some folks are not remembering a time in this country when we did have orphanages " I do remember. And that system worked a lot better than what we have now, which is not working at all.
Originally Posted By jonvn You need to also understand: I'm not interested in the problems of individuals who may suffer for this. They have created their own problems, and have made their own bed to sleep in. That their families may be damaged by a situation where a child is removed is their problem. If they suffer for it, then maybe they'll figure out what they have to do to fix it. And if not, they'll just suffer more. I really don't have a lot of sympathy. Neither do I have sympathy for people who get sent to jail. Oh no, how tragic for the families of the people who get sent to jail! That's just too bad.
Originally Posted By Lisann22 Post 125 - well, that ends this discussion for me. Nothing more to add.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Can you prove that? How did it work better? What did it prevent?" It prevented a cysle of poverty and dependence. You learned that if you don't get a job, and if you behave in a manner that is incongruent with what is best for yourself, you land in an unpleasant situation. "Post 125 - well, that ends this discussion for me" Sorry, but I just don't care about the problems other people inflict UPON THEMSELVES that further damage the rest of the nation. There are other alternatives, too, than the ones I mentioned. Let people starve, for example. You can do that, too. But that really goes against the grain of basic human decency where the idea would be to help people better themselves. And that's the idea here. If these girls can't figure out for themselves that what they are doing is wrong, then they need to be shown. And the way to do that is to make it as bad as possible on them. Otherwise, nothing is going to work.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <That's because I don't have a crystal ball.> Well, none of us do. IMO, what you propose (and I'm still trying to figure out if you're quite serious, or just being devil's advocate here) is too harsh, and would come with its own unintended consequences, side effects, and resulting social ills. The "cure" would be worse than the "disease," which is not to say the disease is not a problem. I also think it wouldn't stand a snowball's chance of being instituted, because: <But that really goes against the grain of basic human decency where the idea would be to help people better themselves.> Taking kids away from their parents also goes against a lot of people's grains - both liberals who tend to want to give poor people a break, and conservatives who tend to believe a parent is always better for the kid than being raised, essentially, by the state. So I'm not sure where any political backing for your ideas comes from either, quite apart from the human element.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Could it really be any worse than it is right now? We've seen what two generations of kids raised on welfare have produced.>> That was a prior post of mine. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, and some research I've done shows that I was. Poverty among both children under 18 and people in single-mother families has been reduced about 35% since the 50's. Source: <a href="http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/" target="_blank">http://www.npc.umich.edu/pover ty/</a> (Look at the graph about half-way down the page.) The Great Society HAS done much to reduce poverty in the U.S. It looks like at least a few of those liberal ideas that never work actually do!!
