Originally Posted By DVC_dad Agree w post # 19. If you hate the US so much, you're free to leave. I believe the US is very much the best place to work, play, and raise a family.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Yeah I think will politicially we are just a mess. And ecdc I know you don't like this, but both parties are to blame. This happened long before Bush got into office and sadly it's going to continue long after.<< It's not that I don't like placing blame where blame belongs. I have no problem with doing just that. Democrats should be blamed for plenty. First, for not standing up to the President when Iraq was being debated. Some of them were spineless and they were too afraid to get their hands dirty by jumping into the fray and playing the Republicans games. When they would be accused of wanting a "terrorist bill of rights," they should have been pounding away about Bush letting bin Laden get away. But instead they rolled over and played dead. Today, they're guilty of the same thing. They don't want to get their hands dirty. They don't want to get into a fight with the Republicans to do the right thing. It's ridiculous and they're letting us down. (As an aside, remember when Bill Clinton took on the Republicans over the government shutdown? He absolutely SCHOOLED them. He had a firefighter stand up in the State of the Union and the firefighter got a standing ovation from both parties in Congress. Then Clinton said the firefighter was out of work because of the government shutdown. I literally winced for the Republicans in that moment. He destroyed them.) What I don't like DAR, is the oversimplification I think you and others have been guilty of to simply say "Well, whaddya expect? They all do it." As I've said before, they've all played politics. They've all clashed and not done any work. They've almost all been guilty of taking special interest money, or lobbyist money. But it's ludicrous to say "they all do it" when referencing Bush. Like it or not, he is in a league all his own. He's failed at almost everything he's done as President. He's let us down on so many levels. He's directly responsible for getting our soldiers in a war they shouldn't have been in and then not getting them the funding they need. He's directly responsible for sending that funding instead to private contractors like Halliburton. To say that's the same thing as the politics that's always gone on is an insult to our dead troops and to the Iraqis. It trivializes what they've gone through by just shrugging and saying "Sorry, ya'll. But you know how those wacky politicians are!" Nope, it doesn't work that way. They've been let down by the worst American President in at least a century. That's the truth, not that Bush is somehow just the same as the Democrats.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Hsving a beef with the current government leaders is one thing, hsving a beef with the country/American people is quite another.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Agree w post # 19. If you hate the US so much, you're free to leave. I believe the US is very much the best place to work, play, and raise a family.<< Oh yeah, this old bit. Because it's so easy to up and leave your country. And of course, the people who always say "America's the greatest country in the world!" are the people who've never been anywhere else for longer than a week.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 just to make sure since my entry is tied to thois #19 had nothing about love it or leave it in the post -- it had to do with the countries philanthropy across the globe - again not dismissing all the bad things and mistakes - just not wanting that to be totally overlooked either. as far as those who feel the US is #1 -- I did live in Germany for a year ( and liked it very much) - and spend a lot of time lately in the far east and Brazil lately on business. I still have yet to find a place I want to live more than here from a total package standpoint - but there certainly are places that are really nice also --I could live in Germany and be happy, and I know those who moved to Australia ( business related moves) and are very happy.
Originally Posted By DAR The Iraqi's have been let down by their governments inability to govern correctly.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'm with you vbdad. If American isn't THE greatest country in the world anymore, pray tell which one is? In my month in Italy I had people criticize the US for this and that, particularly related to Iraq, but to a person they all were enamored that I came from the US and nearly all of them wanted to see the country.
Originally Posted By DAR As far as the "love it or leave it" mentality goes it depends who wants to do the "leaving" if a group of skinheads, terrorists or Sean Penn wants to leave, then I'm all for it.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>but there certainly are places that are really nice also --I could live in Germany and be happy, and I know those who moved to Australia ( business related moves) and are very happy.<< And that's all I really mean. I'm not trying to trash the U.S. - honestly. I love it here myself, and it is one of the greatest countries in the world. I just think it's absurdly presumptuous to say "It's the greatest country in the world!" when the vast, vast majority of Americans know so little about other countries. And as some in our media have rightly pointed out, greatness can be measured. We now know that America's health care industry isn't even in the top 10, let alone the greatest. Our education system isn't the greatest. It's harder to rate things like freedom of religion or freedom of press, but even conservative think tanks typically rate the U.S. lower than some European countries in these areas. At some point, it should be ok to say the U.S. is the greatest country *for me*. Instead we assume it's the greatest for everyone and try (and fail) to export our brand of Democracy elsewhere.
Originally Posted By jonvn "To the OP Itt's rediculous for you to try and connect global warming and fetal alcohol syndrome." I didn't. But don't let that stop your crusade.
Originally Posted By mele Well, if you think the government is a mess...it does stand to reason that you would have a problem with the American people too. We elect or goverment (and continue to re-elect the same losers) so, at some point, the people of America do have to answer for their goverment. But yet, here we get the same old tactic of saying that when a person criticises the president, they are criticising America. If you aren't for the president, you are against Americans. Just like if you don't kiss Bush's feet, you hate the troops. It's hogwash. The "Us vs. Them" mentality is part of the reason why things have gotten so bad in the past few years. I am angry that democrats kept their mouths shut and baked the president over Iraq. I don't believe for a minute that they thought we were in real danger. I think they were more interested in their careers and saving their own butts. The climate at that time was to destroy anyone who didn't agree with Bush. Thankfully it's not that bad now but let's not forget just how bad it was 4-6 years ago. I have no respect for the dems who were silent then and are silent now and I have no respect for the reps now who are still playing that tired "Us vs. Them" game. It's played out.
Originally Posted By jonvn In regards to millions coming here illegally: You don't have to be the very best place to live for that. Just better than where they are from, and easy to get into.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm with you vbdad. If American isn't THE greatest country in the world anymore, pray tell which one is?<< Some might argue that the Scandinavian countries are better - Denmark and Sweden, for example. I know a few Australians who would never give up where they live for the U.S., and they would certainly take issue that America is the greatest. Of course these things are debatable. And it depends on how one measures "greatness." If it's economic wealth and military might, the U.S. is definitely number 1. But if it's freedom of speech, health care, education, etc., then it's tough to say the U.S. is the best. Bigger isn't necessarily better. Just like some might prefer living in a small town to living in New York or L.A., some people might say their small, independent nation is far better than the gargantuan United States.
Originally Posted By ecdc Post 32: Spot on. Well said, Mele. At some point, it's difficult to separate people from the people they elect. We certainly generalize and lump people from other countries together (dear lord, look at how we treated the French). But then we expect nuance when it comes to us?
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Wrong, we are the people who have worked hard to accomplish happiness, who have, through our own efforts grabbed life by the horns and hammered out our portion of "The American Dream" which is NOT just some cliche for school children to hear in 4th grade. Insult me all you want; sticks and stones...I'm not an uneducated simpleton that lives in a fish bowl. But Ido verymuch believe that America is certainly the greatest countey in the world. I'm not saying we are always right politically, god knows our current leadership is horrible. But I'll give you this much, it IS difficult to up and leave the country especially if you have nothing to offer. We have fallen far below what we were in the 1930's and 1940's. But I don't know what other country you could say is "better" by almost any definition of "better."
Originally Posted By DVC_dad The "leave if you don't like it" comment is a bit rediculous I have to admit.
Originally Posted By mele I really am only truly annoyed by people who criticize this country and it's people and yet refuse to try to do anything to make it better. I know that a lot of people don't agree but I think questioning the goverment is more patriotic than swallowing everything, hook, line and sinker. Questioning only gets us so far, though. Actions speak louder than words. It's frustrating to try to change things that we don't like, and often the results are less satisfying (if they happen at all) but it's noble to TRY to change what you don't like about the country. If a person disliked living in America so much that they moved away, good riddance. To me, that's the quitter's route; that is what makes a bad American. It's better to stay and fight for what you believe in. We've got to quit judging a person's patriotism by their political party. I think things are better now than they were 4 years ago but it's sad that things had to get so extreme. But isn't that usually how things work? Human nature, I think.
Originally Posted By jonvn Well, the French have a better health care system. The Candians seem to have better civil liberties. The Dutch seem to as well. What exactly is so better here that you can't get elsewhere anyway? This is basically jingoism. It's better because you are told it's better.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <At some point, it should be ok to say the U.S. is the greatest country *for me< that likely is the best statement
