Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> But they kinda are... -The park isn't stagnant to most guests, especially Disney's coveted "once in a lifetimers." -Marketing is already helping keep the park full most of the time. -Capacity won't be an issue after FLE. The ONLY argument I can see for a big E right now at MK is a "fanboi" wanting something new argument. Nothing wrong with that, I feel it too, but it isn't how they think. I've learned to take the "fanboi"/emotional aspect out of how I look at these things,and just go with pure logic. Makes the disappointment hurt a lot less<<<< So, if we go by their standards, we essentially agree that Disney should pander to these "once in a lifetimers." and ignore the rest of the guests and the quality that WDW deserves? I don't buy that. Marketing is going steady, you are right, but it could ALWAYS have an extra boost and cover something with substance, not just more fluff. You've said it yourself that capacity will be restored to pre 20K levels. ...I'm sure it will alleviate some problems, but goodness knows that MK has developed more problems since then. FLE is a very pretty looking bandaid on a massive wound. I'm afraid neither or our arguments are logical, Lee. Yours is more tempered, and mine is... well, mine, is asking for a lot. Disney's conditioned us to expect a lot. And no, I'm not getting used to being disappointed. I have a feeling they want that out of us.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>They did rebuild Space Mountain, too, within the past decade, didn't they?<<< Indeed they did, and I'd count that.
Originally Posted By HMButler79 ""So, if we go by their standards, we essentially agree that Disney should pander to these "once in a lifetimers." and ignore the rest of the guests and the quality that WDW deserves?"" That IS the insane, near theocratic belief that TDO has and Marketing has and it's trickled down to the Cast. They believe this stuff.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<Adventure thru Inner Space >> Never being to DL I obviously never experienced it. But I love listening to the ride audio of it. Then again I could listen to Paul Frees everyday.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>>So, if we go by their standards, we essentially agree that Disney should pander to these "once in a lifetimers." and ignore the rest of the guests and the quality that WDW deserves? I don't buy that.<<<< Throwing out all emotion here and looking at in a strictly a business viewpoint...You Betcha...the once in a lifetimers, at least in WDW, so enormously outnumber the constant guest that it isn't funny. Based on that you pander to the majority knowing that the minority will become even more minor as time goes on. They have got a product that is in demand and they intend to keep it that way. There is a very large world to draw from and you cannot ignore them and expect Disney to continue to be healthy just on the dollars of a few obsessive fans. The complaints of most of the "fans" are about things that the majority doesn't even know existed. As much as it is frustrating here's the dirty truth. Walt's strong hand and will is now a huge corporation having to react to the stock holders. It's just the way it is.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 I disagree about the once in the lifetimers. What Disney needs to build is a core audience who comes more than once in a lifetime. What Disney is trying to build is a group of people who see WDW as their yearly vacation destination...hence DVC. Disney has to be cautious. People will come as long as they see the value. Disney runs the risk that at some point people will not see the trade off of cost and value. I think Harry Potter at Uni, while not affecting Disney's core business, has shown that people are willing to forgo a Disney vacation to Orlando for something that is perceived to be different or better. In my 30+ years of being a Central FL resident this past year has been the first time I have heard lots of people saying they are going to Uni and skipping Disney. Disney's biggest danger is its arrogance. They have been #1 for so long that they don't foresee a time when they aren't. That's a problem.
Originally Posted By WDWVacationer <<The reasons I'm thinking of, being stagnation, marketing, and capacity aren't your typical "fanboi" demands.>> Stagnation could be solved by any attraction-Fantasyland Expansion. Marketing...the MK pulls enough people now. Capacity will be helped with the New Fantasyland. So those are not urgent Mk issues. So I'd rather see money spent in other WDW parks at this point, who face these issues. DAK faces every single one.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 But the reality is that WDW has been able to maintain attendance because of discounting. One has to wonder if Disney had not been discounting the past couple of years how that would have affected the attendance numbers.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Without all the discounts, no doubt, folks would be vocally clamoring for large additions for each park, including MK. You will never see me use ticket terminology, or shouldn't at least, because it is gotten to a point of complete subjectivity. Far from when it was objectively based on operations/cost/age. With that said, MK needs a large, people eating, extended ride time, attraction not for popularity/appeal sake, but for capacity's sake. Therefore, a thrill ride would be a poor idea, however another boat dark ride would be ideal. I highly doubt that will happen, especially considering what has been proposed for Tomorrowland, e.g. Tron.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Stagnation could be solved by any attraction-Fantasyland Expansion.<<< Could it? I don't think so. Some small additions have made it to the MK... MILF... Philhar... And yet, MK still feels stagnated. It needs something big. Somewhere.
Originally Posted By HMButler79 ""and expect Disney to continue to be healthy just on the dollars of a few obsessive fans"" It's been working in Anaheim since 2005 and still is. The DL Hotel w/ a Yesterland theme, bulldozing DCA1.0 to rebuild it w/ a 1920s L.A. theme w/ obscure character refrences and another Partners statue. Um sorry, you CAN build your base on people who read the E-Ticket magazine like it's The New Yorker and treat The Nickel Tour like a DL Bible.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Many here talk about the parks needing an additional "E ticket", but how is that defined? Around here it seems to be defined as an attraction that the fan bois like. Expedition Everest has the size, the footprint and the popularity to make it an "E". But is it one? No... could be if the damn Yeti just worked. Midway Mania is immensely popular and has the longest waits in the Studios... does that make it an "E"? Nope. Toons on video screens, no animatronics. Definitely not an "E". Mission Space... groundbreaking ride system used nowhere else in the world as far as I know. Is that an "E"? Nope. People puke on it. Besides... it isn't Horizons. Test Track... another unique ride system in an attraction that is extremely popular. Is it an "E"? No way. World of Motion was better because it had animatronics. Even if half of them were recycled from defunct Disney attractions. Surely Lights, Motors, Action is an "E". It certainly has the footprint and length of show to be one. Very popular too... when we see it during the off-season the grandstand is always jammed. But alas, not an "E". The fan bois don't like it. Somehow they all forget that the Tiki's and Country Bears opened as "E tickets". Just what is an "E ticket" in your world anyway? Besides something that you like...
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<It's been working in Anaheim since 2005 and still is. The DL Hotel w/ a Yesterland theme, bulldozing DCA1.0 to rebuild it w/ a 1920s L.A. theme w/ obscure character refrences and another Partners statue. Um sorry, you CAN build your base on people who read the E-Ticket magazine like it's The New Yorker and treat The Nickel Tour like a DL Bible.>> Nope. Apples and Oranges. Population of Los Angeles metro area: 12,872,808 - with two parks to support. Population of Orlando metro area: 2,082,421- with 4 parks to support.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper ^^^I think you're pulling words outta your butt there. Everest, M:S, and TT are most definitely Es. I don't think the fanbois would argue with that. TSMM isn't, and that's words taken from WDI's mouth. No one likes LMA...
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<^^^I think you're pulling words outta your butt there. Everest, M:S, and TT are most definitely Es. I don't think the fanbois would argue with that.>> My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but your statement proves my point. The fanbois don't want an "E". They want an "E" that THEY like. Big difference. <<No one likes LMA...>> That would surprise the 4,998 people who viewed it with us when we were there last January.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<No one likes LMA...>> I didn't mind it and I'd take it over Indy these days.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but your statement proves my point. The fanbois don't want an "E". They want an "E" that THEY like. Big difference.>> Sure, I want high quality. I'd hardly call TT high-quality with it's barely there scenes and sterile setting. That being said, the technology behind the ride is fantastic. Everst would be passable if the Yeti worked. But it doesn't. There's no excuse that will make the show piece, climax and point of the ride being broken okay. <<That would surprise the 4,998 people who viewed it with us when we were there last January.>> Just because people watched it doesn't mean they liked it. I've yet to meet someone outside of a Disney message board that actually likes the show. <<I didn't mind it and I'd take it over Indy these days.>> Indy is far superior. LMA has significant slow portions of the show. Much, much longer than Indy's.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 Truthfully I'm not the biggest fan of stunt shows in general so it doesn't really matter to me. Plus I've seen Indy enough times.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Somehow they all forget that the Tiki's and Country Bears opened as "E tickets". Just what is an "E ticket" in your world anyway? Besides something that you like... << For my opinion, reread post 410 again. Thanks. >>Expedition Everest has the size, the footprint and the popularity to make it an "E". But is it one? No... could be if the damn Yeti just worked.<< Who said that? I haven't read that anywhere. I will say that, imo, Everest is nothing more than a glorified mountain. WDI sure likes their mountains. They can't help themselves from putting big attractions in mountains, and Everest certainly brings home the gold on "Best designed Mountain" Even though they forgot to finish it all around, and the scale up close is completely ruined by the giant Vekoma coaster they have running down it. Bang up job there boys! Without the mountain and without the aforementioned broken AA with rags as fur, it's nothing but a boring Vekoma coaster that has one brief moment of airtime on it. The design relied way too heavily on the transition table, track switch gimmick. When you go back to Universal, and forget all the preconceived judgments you made about it 6 years ago, you will see that Premier's Mummy coaster (not the entire attraction, just the coaster) is a better implementation of a coaster layout without the gimmick overpowering the thrills. Also, just look at the type of revolutionary coasters that have been produced since Everest, most recently the B&M wingrider that is now coming to Dollywood and my old stomping ground SFGAM. Those are coasters that deserve everyone's accolades, not some ho-hum Vekoma inclined helix. Yawn. >>Midway Mania is immensely popular and has the longest waits in the Studios... does that make it an "E"? Nope. Toons on video screens, no animatronics. Definitely not an "E". << In the old days it would certainly cost an E Ticket based on its age and demand. My personal feelings is that it is a creatively bankrupt offering. Very hollow, but hey, the public likes American Idol and Car Stunt Shows too. >>Mission Space... groundbreaking ride system used nowhere else in the world as far as I know. Is that an "E"? Nope. People puke on it. Besides... it isn't Horizons.<< There is a reason why no one uses the ride system. Its cost prohibitive where the same effect to the rider can be offered using far cheaper flat rides like a tilt a whirl. It sure isn't Horizons, first thing I've agreed with you on today RT. Perhaps there was no place for a tilt a whirl ride in EPCOT? Perhaps that question was never adequately posed, because they were so busy trying to out-OA, IOA. >>Test Track... another unique ride system in an attraction that is extremely popular. Is it an "E"? No way. World of Motion was better because it had animatronics. Even if half of them were recycled from defunct Disney attractions. << WoM AAs were not repurposed in 1982. Some molds were for the skins on the faces. >>Surely Lights, Motors, Action is an "E". It certainly has the footprint and length of show to be one. Very popular too... when we see it during the off-season the grandstand is always jammed. But alas, not an "E". The fan bois don't like it. << That's the thing, it seems to be that you take popularity as some sort of validity of superior design. Never forget that popularity does fade, and that other more ambitious additions might have been even more popular than the very offering you feel is justified through it's -RT measured- popularity. Seems to be a very big thing to you RT; popularity. A reoccuring theme that I have just now noticed. Perhaps that's why you are heading back to Universal, because it is now POPular to do so.. I don't know, just my guess. I do know that things which were popular in the past, you don't give much weight to. JII, Toad, 20K, Horizons..
