Originally Posted By mele It's funny that Mormons seem to be so afraid that their church will have to change, that their church will be forced to comply with the law and yet, by meddling in politics so much, they have hopefully brought about the thing they fear so much.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Can you be more specific, mele? What change is the LDS church bringing upon itself?
Originally Posted By mele If you were reading the thread, Josh, you'd see that we're talking about taxing churches that meddle in politics. Hopefully your church will be forced to either be taxed or change what they're doing. See, I'm actually answering your questions. Too bad you don't have the courtesy to do the same.
Originally Posted By Mr X Tax status, perhaps? If they do that, though, better to go after the Catholics first. That'd solve our whole financial crisis right there!
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm not concerned about the tax matter. I would rather it not change, obviously. But if speaking out on moral issues takes away the tax status of a church, then tax away.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <what other "issues" is your group speaking out on?> Right now, because of the Prop 8, this issue has been reported on and talked about more by the media and people on discussion boards. Our church speaks out on a lot of things through it's newsroom on the website, through our general conference broadcast worldwide, and through our actions as reported by news sources across the globe. Choose any of the following: Child Abuse <a href="http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/child-abuse" target="_blank">http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnew...ld-abuse</a> Community Service <a href="http://www.sunnewsonline.com/webpages/features/living/2008/sept/27/living-27-09-2008-003.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sunnewsonline.com/w...-003.htm</a> Helping the poor <a href="http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/church-welfare-program-helps-people-help-themselves-during-tough-economic-times" target="_blank">http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnew...ic-times</a> Love your enemies, turn the other cheek <a href="http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-947-22,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/conference/...,00.html</a> Patience <a href="http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-947-27,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/conference/...,00.html</a> Etc...
Originally Posted By jdub Marriage Equality <a href="http://www.affirmation.org/learning/anti-gay.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.affirmation.org/lea...ay.shtml</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X And are they fund raising for, mobilizing their congregations against, and taking political action on any of those Josh? I certainly haven't heard about it. (some info from a source OTHER than lds.org would be great, too)
Originally Posted By utahjosh (some info from a source OTHER than lds.org would be great, too) You asked what WE are speaking out on. Why on earth would I post links from somewhere else to tell you what WE speak out on?
Originally Posted By Mr X Well, a confirmation from another source that confirms the "speaking out" is my point. lds.org could put out any number of lies and we'd be none the wiser. And by the way, please don't confuse "speaking out" on moral issues with what your group is doing, which is mobilizing and politically campaigning in a very direct and purposeful manner. THAT'S where the tax status comes into play. Your leaders can "speak out" against the abomination of gayness all they want, without ever risking the exempt status. It has gone far beyond that, obviously.
Originally Posted By jdub THIS is "speaking out" on moral issues: <a href="http://www.affirmation.org/pdf/2008_08_10_desnews.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.affirmation.org/pdf...news.pdf</a>
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "But if speaking out on moral issues takes away the tax status of a church, then tax away." Changing the constitution is not a moral issue josh, it's a political one. Your church is free to condemn homosexuality as a sin, but when you cross into the political realm there is a serious problem. Our legal code should not be based on morality because morality is relative. Harming another individual (physically, financially, emotionally) is easily recognizable and can be adequately regulated by laws. Justice can be legislated, morality can't. We as a society have seen it just to offer tax benefits to "moral" organizations such as churches. But I think that's because these institutions are supposed to providing services (such as helping the poor) to alleviate some of the government's responsibilities. When these organizations in turn use that money to promote a political agenda, that is when the tax-exempt status really needs to be examined. According to the IRS, to be qualified for tax-exempt status under section 501(c)(3): "To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates." <a href="http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.irs.gov/charities/c...,00.html</a> It further defines "Exempt Purposes" as: "The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency." <a href="http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=175418,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.irs.gov/charities/c...,00.html</a> Take special note of where it says "eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law". Based on those grounds alone, what the LDS Church (and others) is doing right now isshould be putting their status at risk. They are clearly not working toward eliminating discrimination nor defending human and civil rights as secured by law. In fact, they are doing quite the opposite.
Originally Posted By mele <<<a href="http://www.affirmation.org/pdf...news.pdf>>" target="_blank">http://www.affirmation.org/pdf...>></a> Which brings me back to another question that is continually ignored. What about the millions of families (including children) who will be hurt if Prop 8 passes. I guess those families aren't as important as other families.
Originally Posted By mele They say protecting families is most important to them and yet they are damaging real families by what they're doing. I guess they only mean that *their families* are most important.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>What about the millions of families (including children) who will be hurt if Prop 8 passes.<< They aren't real families, you see. And it's more important to bring turmoil and upset to them so that my marriage can be protected. Because I am scared of the gayness, and don't want to catch it. And I sure don't want my kids to catch it, so families must be thrown into turmoil to protect other families. A message must be sent, and if that hurts people, too bad. It's what they get for being gay, which is a choice people must make.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <They say protecting families is most important to them and yet they are damaging real families by what they're doing. I guess they only mean that *their families* are most important.> You've got it wrong - it's protecting our society, which is strongest when based on strong traditional families.
Originally Posted By mele I'll just let post #58 speak for itself. I think it's clear to most people what is going on.
Originally Posted By Mr X Not true, Josh. You're spewing talking point lies again. Why not try thinking for yourself on this one?
