Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Why can't these powers be used for medical diagnosis, or the stock market, instead of mundane, trivial things that usually amount to nothing? >>> You would also think that if these people existed, that at least *some* of them would at some point have participated in the double-blind, peer-reviewed scientific studies that are conducted to establish fact or fiction, and would thus be wider known.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I cared what your opinion of her was.<< You really don't deal well with people disagreeing with you, do you? Ah well, again, not my intention to irk anyone. I still think understanding the psychology of belief in psychics, pseudoscience, etc., is important.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I didn't think Dabob was condescending, not at all. And Dave, I'm right there with you. I dated a girl who was psychic and it's one of the main reasons why I stopped seeing her, despite the fact she was a drop dead gorgeous blonde who also loved sex. Plus, she was rather intelligent. We worked together. It was her uncanny ability to tell me what I was thinking and about to say that drove me nuts. She wasn't always able to do this, or possibly just didn't always do it, but it always seemed to happen at the worst times. From a song I was thinking about to what I was about to say to someone to what I was going to say to her, to what I had said to someone else hours earlier when she wasn't present, it was just too much. And as far as "using her powers for good", she was aware of what she was doing but explained that she had no control over it, the thoughts just came to her, and it wasn't as if she could concentrate and figure out where Hoffa was or who was going to win the Super Bowl. For her, it centered around personal interaction and either sensing what had happened to those close to her or what was going to happen or be said. We had the conversation about finding lost kids, dogs, money, etc., and that's when she said it just didn't work that way for her. It wasn't something she could turn on and off or recall on a whim.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Telling me I have a sick cousin, or a sagging corner just don't cut it." When you've never met the guy before, never seen his house, and don't even know that he has a cousin named Doris? Believe me, I think most of these people are bogus. This is the one guy, and I do mean one, that made me think "maybe." "I didn't think Dabob was condescending, not at all." I think mele was referring to ecdc. And believe me, I share his skepticism about every other person who has claimed this that I've ever met.
Originally Posted By Mr X I, too, know someone I might dare call a "genuine" psychic, as skeptical as I normally am about such things. In my case, she did something once that freaked me out completely. I had lost my wallet, and she sat me down and held my glasses (she wanted something "personal" to get a read), and said after a minute or so - "It's in the bushes, on Dexter Street" (an obscure side street nowhere near our location). And, sure enough, it was there. Keep in mind, I hadn't even walked on Dexter. Someone had taken the money and chucked it into the bushes elsewhere. The ONLY plausible explanation would have been that she went out and actually SAW it prior to the "reading", but if that were the case it would have gone against her personality entirely (she, like the others mentioned, never had "sessions" or made any money from it, and only told close friends and family about it in a casual way). Perhaps it was simply a lucky guess. Tough to say. But she was the only one (professional or otherwise) that ever made me think twice. Professional shysters (emotional predators, really) like the OP mentions here are just loathsome, though. I agree with that sentiment completely.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***When you've never met the guy before, never seen his house, and don't even know that he has a cousin named Doris?*** Well, to flip it around and play devil's advocate right after my post above (where I did imply there could be a logical explanation I just wasn't willing to accept), if you really want to dig further there are other possibilities. They start to assume, though, that the psychic in question is really more insidious than we want to believe (which, let's face it, some people are). Perhaps he spoke to some workmen who'd been in the house and noticed the problem, but didn't report it. Perhaps he noticed your dad coming out of said house by chance and had a look around, noticing the southwest corner in the process. As far as how he knew the address, perhaps he saw it written in some personal effects on your dad's desk. Along those lines, perhaps he saw the name "Doris" in a rolodex or an appointment book. Perhaps he also noticed her birthday written down, and because she was getting on in years figured the "she's not well" line would work nicely. Granted, these are all assuming facts not in evidence, but you have to start really digging when you look for holes in these "impossible" stories. James Randi does, and he gets em EVERY TIME (I would love to see that old friend I mentioned go up against Randi and see what happens, except that I know it would hurt her feelings...but extraordinary claims seldom hold up in court that's for sure!).
Originally Posted By Tikiduck So, how does a skeptic come to terms with such phenomenal people? Being an atheist, I certainly have a hard time giving credit to a higher power. How could anyone possibly possess such insight without a supernatural explanation? Perhaps our brains, like the universe, are still a complete mystery.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Perhaps our brains, like the universe, are still a complete mystery.<< Perhaps. Science exists to test the observable and falsifiable. Right now, when science tests and observes psychics, it shows, time and time again, psychics powers are better explained as cold reading, patternicity, and a failure to remember the misses. Maybe someday science will have more advanced ways of observing and testing psychic claims. No matter how nice or sincere or well-meaning someone is, there's a reason we don't rely on anecdotal reporting to determine the veracity of some claims. If someone comes on LP and says their best friend saw Big Foot, I'm going to be skeptical of that. Ditto seeing Jesus or a dead relative. Sometimes these things mean a lot to people, and it's nothing personal, it's just a recognition that humans often make leaps in logic when they experience or see something that doesn't immediately make sense to them.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< How could anyone possibly possess such insight without a supernatural explanation? Perhaps our brains, like the universe, are still a complete mystery. >>> I think that's the answer. There's more going on in the world, even on a purely scientific basis, than we currently understand. It's always been that way, and probably always will be. I don't remember who said it, but there's a famous quote to the effect of "anything substantially beyond our current understanding of science appears to be magic." Consider the case of those first astronomers in ancient times that were able to predict eclipses. To virtually everyone at the time, they appeared to be able to predict the unpredictable. Not only were eclipses not understood as to when they'd happen, they also weren't understood for what they were, and were felt to be a sign from the Gods. So, someone that could predict them must have extraordinary powers indeed. These days, anyone with an almanac can predict them, even though nothing about the actual reality has changed.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< "People who claim to have connections to the supernatural always seem to prey on those who are desperate and vulnerable." Like...religion? >>> You beat me to it!
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...7jHYriFo</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...7jHYriFo</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc Randi is the man. One of my favorite quotes ever: "I know how to fool people, but more importantly, I know how people fool themselves."
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Perhaps he spoke to some workmen who'd been in the house and noticed the problem, but didn't report it." Etc. Perhaps I didn't explain this well enough. This man and my dad had never met before the conversation I related. This man did not even know my dad existed. A friend of my dad's, a fellow psych professor at a nearby college, told my dad about this man, who he was going to have speak at one of his classes. My dad came to the class unannounced. Even his friend, the other professor, did not know he was coming. And so the man in question could not have known my dad was coming. My dad went fully expecting to see a charlatan, thinking it might be interesting from a psych perspective, i.e. why do people believe this stuff? He knows all the tricks that ecdc and others have related. After the class, my dad went to talk to the man, and a couple of sentences into their conversation, out of the blue, this man mentioned my dad's house. A couple of sentences after that, he mentioned Doris. Both unprompted. Not knowing who my dad was, let alone where he lived or that he had a cousin named Doris.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Perhaps I didn't explain this well enough. This man and my dad had never met before the conversation I related. This man did not even know my dad existed*** No, I sort of got that - I was just throwing out possibilities, including the possibility that this man somehow knew of your dad even if your dad didn't know of him (and yes, I realize that starts sounding highly improbable but you could consider many different angles along those lines if you make the initial assumption that the dude in question is a shady character out to fool people).
Originally Posted By Mr X I appreciate the fact that your explanation makes my speculation all the more improbable, but the point I'm trying to make is it's still not impossible. One more point and I'll shut up... ***A friend of my dad's, a fellow psych professor at a nearby college, told my dad about this man, who he was going to have speak at one of his classes. My dad came to the class unannounced*** So we have someone familiar with your dad, a friend, one who is gullible enough to invite a psychic to speak to his class. Who's to say what he revealed to the psychic before the meeting, particularly along the lines of "Know any skeptics?", "There's an old friend of mine is so skeptical, he'd NEVER buy into your stuff! I first met him, oh must have been decades ago with that hot relative of his, Doris." Just sayin. (and yeah, I know my examples aren't solid, I'm just going down one potential path...)
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Doris was a very popular name from 1918 through about 1936. In the late 20s it was one of the ten most popular names. I'd venture to guess that anyone who is between 60 and 90 likely knows a Doris pretty well. And guessing that this person named Doris, who was likely born between 1920 and 1930, has some sort of illness is like guessing that a person who posts on Laughing Place has at least one article of clothing with a Disney character on it. Southwest corner of the house is sinking?Every house sinks on its foundation over time. The psychic had a 1-in-4 chance of being right on this, and knowing the weather patterns or hearing contractors or home inspectors talk about typical findings in the region would give him even more information. I can say with reasonable accuracy that if you live in Port Angeles your house has mold. If you live in Hawaii, your house has dry rot. If you live in an area where the prevailing winds during the wettest parts of the year come from a certain direction that you're going to find rot or cracking in that direction. It's a cruel joke if psychic abilities are a real thing, but they are only useful for showing you where you left your car keys and other trivialities. Want to avoid a war? Sorry, can't show you that. But here's this guy - M? Does that mean anything? Mike, Mark - Mark? Yes, it's Mark - and he hurt your feelings a long time ago and is sorry about it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I don't immediately dismiss things that defy explanation or currently known scientific "fact". I don't necessarily embrace them either. I just recognize there is the possibility that there is "stuff" out there that we don't presently understand. To me it is the mystery of not knowing or understanding everything that makes life interesting. I think I would find ecdc's outlook on life quite boring. I hope he is either a mathematician or an accountant. He would make a great one. ;-)
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "(and yeah, I know my examples aren't solid, I'm just going down one potential path...)" I hear you, and that's fine. But just to give the facts of this particular case, my dad asked his friend about this after the class. He had not mentioned my dad to this guy, and both were unaware he would even show up, as my dad had never shown up to this guy's class before. This guy seriously didn't know my dad from Adam. To answer Tom's point, this all happened about 20 years ago. Doris wasn't that old when she died. Most people won't predict that someone in her 50s they've never so much as seen is going to be dead within six months. And after my dad found out the corner of his house was sinking, his immediate neighbors had the geologist look at their places too. Nobody else's was.
