Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Hmmm, interesting. I would say that the Nemo Musical (though not to my taste), Soarin', Lights Motors Action, and if it worked properly, EE JTTFM are all high quality additions. The refurb of HM is good. And American Idol seems a reasonable diversion. So for me, although there are stinker attractions, Toontown Fair was an abomination since Mickey's Starland was built decades ago. to me it is the loss of quality and showmanship of what they have that lost me as a loyal guest. Paying %+ star rates for AKL and getting Travelodge quality service. Poor and limited transport service from a deluxe to the parks. Broken effects everywhere. Dirty parks. Poor cast members. Mediocre dining in so called signature restaurants. Very little non character related streetmousphere compared to 5 years ago, which was half of what was offered 10 years ago. Shopping that means there is no point exploring anymore, when you can buy the same PotC, WDW 2010, Hannah montana landfill junk in every store. The magic is no longer there. DL and DLP still have it, and for less money (even though they are also on a similar trajectory, Paris really suffering the last 4 years). And this is why we are going to DLP this year as we have a marriott villa there and Aps that are still good, but I am really looking forward to taking the kids into Paris now that they are older, and I am more excited about taking them to Strasbourg, the Black Forest, and the Rheinland a week later. But Marriott got our custom because they still offered value. And I have yet to be dazzled by a stay in one of the MVCI resorts in Europe or California. To think, we nearly bought DVC. Because of the issues above, I am soooooo glad we did not!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo And now, I am going to say something elitist, that is going to annoy many. But I think the two things that really ruined the place were the All Stars and the Dining Plan. WDW resorts used to be premium products, hosting guests that were likely to be well versed in travel and with high quality expectations. When they started trying to lure people from the 192 and IDrive hotels, we started to see the slip. Also, I think as the place got bigger, besides the issue with casting, I think people doing 4 days of commandoing simply didn't notice. It might have been a cut back on custodial shifts here, a cheaper procurement of a couple of products there, fine tuning of the hours here, and introducing non union performers as characters instead of equity actors and musicians there, make do refurbs, new additions that are only filler but will get green lit because of synergy, etc. etc. and voila, we have modern WDW (and it is not in a bubble, it is a reflection of what is going on in the real world elsewhere too). Us old timers or guests who travel elsewhere notice it. Some newer guests do too. But there are a hell of a lot of newbies still, apologists, and the "it's too difficult to go elsewhere crowd" add to it. Mix in the brits who are too Francophobic to go to Paris (and think California is too far even though it is only an hour extra on the place and often is $20 cheaper), those who do the whole Orlando thing and accept WDW as being = Universal, Busch, KSC, and soon Legoland. and you get WDW of 2010.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^^^ I agree, and it's not elitist at all. They opened up the product, and that's a great thing, but not in the sense of them also bringing down the product at the same topic. Glad I started this thread!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 The interesting thing about the changes davewasbaloo pointed out is that they didn't all happen at once. WDW has slowly been lowering its quality over the last 20 years, so it would be almost impossible for them to turn things around quickly. I guess the best we could hope for would be a gradual climb out of the pit - but I haven't seen anything to tell me that's going to happen anytime soon.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 The CM problem is one that's just not fixable at WDW. I know the saying is that nothing is impossible, but this is an impossible fix. There are just TOO many positions that need to be filled. ------------- I've been at many busines pressentation with CEO's of companies with large amounts services employees. This has been an issue for 15-20 years- and companies like Walgreens struggle to fill positions and they are spread across the entire country. To try and fill 60,000 of these in Orlando with happy/ glad to have a job workers, is impossible. I doubt it would be possible in much larger cities like LA- Chicago NY - let alone a city the size of Orlando. in this case size is not a blessing
Originally Posted By sjhym333 ^^^but the problem is that companies dont want to pay a livable wage anymore. You want to fill positions at Disney? Stop paying $7.65 an hour to attractions hosts. Lets be honest. A fulltime CM is asked to have full availability, work weekends and holidays, be friendly to guests, keep people safe, run an attraction that could kill a guest if not properly run or watched and all for the starting salary of $7.65. A year later you could be making a whopping $7.95. It's silly. The reason Disney cant keep people is because they ask alot and pay a little.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^ agree , I wouldlike to see the wage more also- but are you willing to work say for a 20% increase if they decrease the workforce by 20%, 10% ? Can they - I don't know. at 60,000 employees- you raise the salary by $2/hr - for 40 hours a week- 52 weeks a year and your just added $345M to the cost side of the ledger - not counting incremental increases in disability insurance, 401K match etc. id $9.65 going to make that much difference in attracting quality workers ? Again I can't answer that as I am at a different stage in my life to be able to answer fairly. at $12/hr which to me would be a nice starting wage you are talking about $750M...no way they can take that kind of hit, without even larger increases than we have already seen in prices. They would have to cut work force in order to do that - can they survive with less workforce? I can't answer that question as I would have no basis for making the call. So I understand the wage issue, just don't have a solution
Originally Posted By Expo_Seeker40 If you were to ask someone in 1970, what they thought about when they heard the word "Disney", they may have first spoken about the late Walt Disney, then his moves, his television shows, Disneyland, what was going on at the future Disney World, etc. In 2010...you ask someone what they think when they hear the word "Disney".......Princesses, Pirates, expensive, long lines, crowds, childish, etc. To simply put it...Walt Disney was more interested in Progress City than he was in the Magic Kingdom. He was more interested having new and cutting edge ride systems i.e. small world flume, carousel theater, and magic skyway track then he was with having his walk around characters greet guests at the world's fair. Disney up through the mid 80s....was a massive tree....at it's core was creativity...on it's branches was princesses, adventure series, corporate attractions, serious overtones, futurism, etc. Over the years that tree that was planted..has started to rot...and has lost branches over the years. Where some of the branches disappeared new ones have sprouted up..more merchandise...more spin offs of the same franchise...more of one thing....not enough balance, etc. Basically...the standards Disney set were not only copied over the years, but now...decades later...a batch of competitors, particularly the one up the interstate....has "got it"........they....got....."it". The the 2011 season for them and beyond will be as full of creative juice as 1971 was for Disney. Isn't it sad that we have to have threads on other forums where we (myself included) are excited that the monorails have gone back to their classic look for the first time in years? I'm not saying having decals on them once and a while is a problem...but really....the monorails were MEANT to be clean cut. Now...when I say things were meant to be something that doesn't mean Fantasy and the Sky and the old castle lighting MUST be the only evening things for all eternity....no...I mean some thematic elements at WDW were just supposed to be a certain way and evolve with respect to that theme. Example in another thread.....the bottom floors of the contemporary are different now, but reflect the thematic purpose of earth tones, natural paneling, and angular designs that make the contemporary as dynamic and fresh to us now as it was in 1971...yet on the grand canyon is a mess of conflicting art and styles that makes the bottom 3 floors and grand canyon mural contradict the rest of the hotel. This would have been uncalled for in 1971. Then let's look at the creativity in 1971....western river expedition....the massive restaurant of the asian resort with suspended golden light fixtures....the intricate marina at the venetian resort, etc Now fast forward to miami beach tower at disney's contemporary resort....and the michael eisner era of "disney's this" and "disney's that" The Polynesian IS Disney...the public of the era knew it was....now it has to be "Disney's Polynesian" to help prove something because Disney is princesses and video games. Just this past week when I went to the parks for thanksgiving and black friday, I heard older folk...maybe 40s through 60s talk about how the quality has gone down, and how everything is full of merchandise. To be fair..most of the merchandise and hotel rooms are actually what they were in the 70s if you adjust it for inflation. It always has been pricey. Maybe not 14 dollar parking, but the garden wing at the contemporary floats now at it's same price in the 70s give or take a little. Now let's be realistic...there were bulbs out on MS USA in the 70s and 80s....there was cracked railing paint, but I do think management was more serious about solving those problems than they are today. Walt Disney World now....is just too big...there's too much to see and do...and most of it is in your face. A bit of it is just plain tacky...the entry arches...the gaudy makeover of the transportation center with orange and green and purple WTF?! the merch carts everywhere...and in the breezways, etc Read some of the comments on sites such as tripadvisor, yelp, etc Disney is boring...they aren't changing, and when they do change something...it's predicable like stitch's great escape and monsters inc. Disney is at an branding crisis....it can play the easy way and market themselves to dumb tourists who go once and a while and expect "Disney" to be nothing but rides and shows based right off the movies...so a typical family would be bored to death riding the TTA or going around world showcase...but would love disney quest, shopping for princess tiaras in tomorrowland, and buying a big ball from the breezeway of innoventions. Yet the easy way is now coming back to haunt disney...and the hardway...the detailed way..the creative way...is kicking disney's ass thanks to former imagineers and creatives that work at universal and even sea world. So many other Disney resorts have better things than Florida has. I would much rather wait 5 years for 2 E tickets and in the mean time get rid of the excess merch carts, fix the cracked paths and sidewalks, fix up the rides, clean up epcot, etc Universal is now exciting and the whole "what will they think of next". Walt loved that. That's what he was about. He would be mortified of what most people think of Disney now. "Oh another pixar movie, oh another princess movie, oh another pirate shirt, oh another DVD for $40 before it goes back into the vault." As much as Roy O. Disney was a penny pincher, he'd probably freak out at the excessive commercialist ventures taken by Disney today. You wouldn't have seen DVC all over the place even if it did exist in 1971. end of rant
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Just because people have money, that doesn't necessarily mean they have class. Some dumb blonde wench in a volvo suv cut me off yesterday as I was trying to leave school. When I find out who she is I'm going to double her child's tuition. And just because they stay at the All Stars or Pop doesn't mean they are low class. I stay at the Poly because my kids are grown and the Poly is my taste. But with younger kids, the cheaper hotels probably offer more kid stuff than the Poly does.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 Wow, interesting thread. And it has taken some interesting detours. I'm too tired to weigh in on all the tangents, but I am compelled to answer EE's original question. For me, it's a yes, it would be enough to up the overall quality of Disney. I actually don't need new attractions all the time. I appreciate plussing in the ones that exist. But mostly I want things that work, cleanliness, knowledgeable and not over worked cast members, to be treated as a valued guest rather than cattle, monorails without crap on them or in them, a viable transportation system that doesn't have the single handed ability to put me in a rotten mood, less strollers, less EV's, and real merchandise in the stores so that shopping feels like a fun activity again. Actually, that would feel like a Very Merry UnBirthday to me. And I would be happy and go give the mouse my money. Okay, so that's a little over simplified, but you get the drift!~
Originally Posted By leobloom >> buying a big ball from the breezeway of innoventions. << I don't think there's a better example of out-of-place merchandise than this. Why are these big balls sold in Epcot? What dumb tourist would buy these big balls? And better question, what do you do with those big balls once you buy them? Is that enough innuendo for ya?
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Personally the balls were just a distraction or a small entertainment. They interacted with people passing through and brought some smiles.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 The problem with the size of a company like Disney is now is that people are afraid to make decisions. There are too many layers of people in the decision making process and many of them have no experience with the product they sell. Some of it has to do with Disney's decision years ago to hire mgmt from outside. Some of it has to do with mgrs watching out for themselves. But it all boils down to being too big to move quickly in a changing world. That is why you see little changes here and there. The bigger ones are too risky. It is also why you see more things like meet and greets because it is easier to justify places that promote merchandise sales rather than complex attractions. I think some of the brilliance of Harry Potter at Universal is that it has done both. Disneys size has neutered itself.
Originally Posted By -em >> I don't think there's a better example of out-of-place merchandise than this.<< Raises hand. The fact the Liberty Square American Heritage store now features from wall to wall. Nightmare before Christmas. Nothing says colonial america like Jack Skellington. -em
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer Great posts everyone. Thanks for taking the time to respond. >>>The Polynesian IS Disney...the public of the era knew it was....now it has to be "Disney's Polynesian" to help prove something because Disney is princesses and video games.<<< Thats another large issue I have. Constant branding. Why can't we just let the Disney name stand in its own and be synonymous with quality, and creativity, no matter what the genre? I don't know where Disney lost their way with that. For a company that's always been paramount when compared to others in the business, (until recently...Hello, WWOHP) why would they suddenly have the desire to oversaturate the brand? People know that EPCOT is Disney. People know that the Contemporary is a WDW hotel. People don't need to be reminded... It cheapens the product and feel. The experience of Disney no longer becomes a organic one, but it feels cheaper, tagged by Disney, as if that name just makes it better. I guess that's just a sign that they are living off their name and old legacy.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> And just because they stay at the All Stars or Pop doesn't mean they are low class. I stay at the Poly because my kids are grown and the Poly is my taste. But with younger kids, the cheaper hotels probably offer more kid stuff than the Poly does.<<<< Class has nothing to do with where you stay, it's how you act. Otherwise, I'd be the biggest bumpkin of them all... Mr. Offsite and all. ;-) READ: I AM JOKING.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>For me, it's a yes, it would be enough to up the overall quality of Disney. I actually don't need new attractions all the time. I appreciate plussing in the ones that exist. But mostly I want things that work, cleanliness, knowledgeable and not over worked cast members, to be treated as a valued guest rather than cattle, monorails without crap on them or in them, a viable transportation system that doesn't have the single handed ability to put me in a rotten mood, less strollers, less EV's, and real merchandise in the stores so that shopping feels like a fun activity again. Actually, that would feel like a Very Merry UnBirthday to me. And I would be happy and go give the mouse my money. Okay, so that's a little over simplified, but you get the drift!~<<< Exactly! So, simple problems, simple solution, right, TDO?! Fix the small stuff.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Personally the balls were just a distraction or a small entertainment. They interacted with people passing through and brought some smiles.<<<< Of course. But there are so many other ways of doing that in the parks. Remember the barker bird in front of PotC? Notice how DHS has streetmosphere? Remember the living statues in Italy? Lucky in DAK? There are so many simple fixes that fit the parks. Disney doesn't have to resort to cheap gags and tricks to keep us entertained.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>> I don't think there's a better example of out-of-place merchandise than this.<< Raises hand. The fact the Liberty Square American Heritage store now features from wall to wall. Nightmare before Christmas. Nothing says colonial america like Jack Skellington. -em<<< Almost as bad as Hannah Montana in Tomorrowland.
