Originally Posted By Mr X ***If the same thing were done with atheists and agnostics, would it be fair?*** I dunno about fair, but it's done all the time.
Originally Posted By ecdc I agree with the sentiment that literalism of belief often doesn't separate extremists from the mainstream. There are millions of Americans who believe the Bible is infallible. They believe in the literal story of Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, etc. It's things like that which lead to Prop 8 - I'm right, God said so, so I'm forcing it on you. Not all that different from Islamic extremist mentality, and definitely a bit troubling for some of us. That said, we non-believers cannot discount the difference in actions. No matter how much someone may say they believe something, they don't always act like it. Or their churches have come up with different interpretations or explanations to eschew violence and extremism as a way to achieve mainstream respectability. Convenient? Maybe. Welcome? Most definitely. I'm always up for a good, spirited debate about the existence of god, value of religion, role of belief, etc. But I'll gladly take moderate religion over extreme religion any day of the week. And compared to extremist Islam in the Mid-East, 99% of American churches are moderate. Sure, there's whack-jobs like Erik Prince and those in "the Family." And I hate the nonsense spewed from Rick Warren or Mormon leaders on gays and other progressive issues, but there's no way you can argue they support or encourage violence. In the way that counts most - actions - they're miles from extremists.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Why do you have a hard time reconciling the two. I am Christian and let my step-daughter dress as the devil for Halloween last year." Reread this and ask yourself why I might be confused by such behavior. If you believe that demons exist, which as a Christian I assume you do, and you follow the logic that they should be shunned and rebuked, why in the world would you have you child dress up as one? Do you not believe in Satan Princessjenn5795? Just curious.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>If you believe that demons exist, which as a Christian I assume you do<< Did Felix Unger teach us nothing about what assume means? I consider myself Christian and I don't believe in demons lurking about.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I'm sorry, I always hammer this point whenever the topic of religion comes up on LP, but lumping people into these easily labeled groups (extremists, zealots, Godless communists) is easy to do, and dangerous. because that's what people like this Quran-torching clown in Florida, Rev. Butane or whatever his name is, does. He see MUSLIMS as one evil, one dimensional thing (not unlike how many Americans seem unable to handle a Muslim community center a couple blocks from the WTC site -- it must be an Islamic terrorist camp!). No good Muslims or bad Muslims or extremist, whack-job Muslims distorting their religion as an excuse to murder thousands of innocent people. Just MUSLIMS. It isn't much better to start including every stripe of Christian (and there are a wide variety who do not all march in lock step on every thing) as loony extremists.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Did Felix Unger teach us nothing about what assume means? I consider myself Christian and I don't believe in demons lurking about." I stated that it was an assumption based on the fact that Princessjenn5795 is a Christian. I guess I need to understand how you can believe in Jesus who died for our "sins", God, and the rest of it and not believe in Satan or evil spirits. Based on Biblical teachings doesn't it all go hand in hand?
Originally Posted By barboy2 De. Hans, your question is absolutely reasonable. What I have noticed is that so many "believers" practice a religious line item veto. Stragely enough do you know who some of the most honest believers really are(those who don't pick and choose religious behaviors based on comfort, wealth, popularity or social status but on a what they perceive is God's law)? They are the ones standing on Market Street(a reference for you Bay Area folk out there")with blowhorns and signs saying if we don't repent now we are doomed. They are societal extremists and branded nutcases for sure and for good reason BUT they tend to be very honest practicioners of their faith. They give up comfort for--- **in their minds**--- an obedience to God. Life on Earth for them must really suck badly and can not be very fun.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'll wait a bit longer before I explain to see if anyone else notices what I have noticed. ((((hint: "active voice")))*** Well?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Did Felix Unger teach us nothing about what assume means? I consider myself Christian and I don't believe in demons lurking about." Ah yes, one of my all time favorites. I'd be surprised if many get the reference. Here's another: Oscar helps out a mysterious, free-spirited girl by letting her spend the night. Felix was out of town so Oscar let her use his bed. However, Felix came home early and discovered a strange woman in his bed. Felix says "It's not my birthday!"
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance I don't understand how people that are religious can pick and choose what they want to believe and then feel like they have a firm belief in what they believe. I mean, do you think you happened to guess everything right? For example, "I'm a christian, but I don't believe that people can go to hell because God wouldn't do that." I mean, you can't just pull stuff out of no where expect it to be true, and then call yourself christian when you don't buy half of what they're selling.
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///Well?/// Oh that's right---- I still have an outstanding LP 'debt' to pay off. So where were we??? I guess right here: *******Since religion naturally claims that god exists in some unreachable, unlocatable realm, they("believers") essentially insulate themselves from the danger of being disproven by science.******* I noticed that you got all 'active' on us(as opposed to using a more 'passive' voice) by writing "(BELIEVERS) ESSENTIALLY INSULATE.........." ............... as if "believers" willfully/purposely/knowingly set up their faith in such a fashion just to avoid being proven wrong or discredited by science or "unbelievers". But that isn't what "believers" do; they don't trust in a God, who happens to be as you say 'unreachable', just to stymie any self proclaimed atheist or agnostic. That "insulation" from being prove wrong by non-believers merely came with the territory.
Originally Posted By Mr X I disagree. I wouldn't say it's something that any one person or even any one religion did at some specific time in history. In that sense, it's much like evolution (gasp!). Natural Selection favored the religions that were less easily disproven. So while I see your point in that it's not something they *specifically* chose, it's still a general "will" to cling to the religion that is easiest to defend.
Originally Posted By Mr X There should've been a ",however." after "history". There. Makes more sense now.
Originally Posted By Labuda "For example, "I'm a christian, but I don't believe that people can go to hell because God wouldn't do that."" Yeah, that amazes me. Have these people not read the old testament? God was an angry dude before Jesus came along.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't understand how people that are religious can pick and choose what they want to believe and then feel like they have a firm belief in what they believe. << I don't know how firm my beliefs are in comparison to others. But I don't understand why religious people have to be all-or-nothing when it comes to what they believe. People may believe in the First Amendment in general, but there is wide variance when it comes to where they personally would draw the line. This idea that everyone must strictly to adhere to one and only interpretation of things is... interesting. Do all agnostics and atheists believe 100% party line the same things? I doubt it. The problem with the line of reasoning that people can't (or shouldn't) pick and choose or interpret their religious beliefs differently is that it really is just yet another way to attempt to place every religious person in the extremist box. "You say you believe in THIS, so you must also believe in THIS." Which is just another way of saying "You say you don't share extremist views, but really, you must." Well, no, not necessarily. I am never going to be a person who is out to recruit or sway anybody to have religious beliefs. What people believe is their own business. But I will always seek out ways for believers and non-believers to live with mutual respect. Not agreeing, obviously, but also not condemning or mocking the other side. there's been way too much of that.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But I don't understand why religious people have to be all-or-nothing when it comes to what they believe.<< I get what you're saying, but look at it from the non-believers perspective. Believers typically believe what they do because they consider it to be the truth, correct? I mean, Christians are Christians because they believe in Jesus and not Allah. And so, if they believe it to be correct, then how does one choose to just dismiss one part of it? How, for example, how is the Bible right about Jesus dying on the cross but wrong about homosexuality and women? To a non-believer like me, it feels a bit like saying, "I believe Walt Disney invented Disneyland and made all these great movies, but I choose not to believe that he was involved in the Red Scare and HUAC." If we're supposedly dealing with truth here, how can one just pick and choose what they believe and don't believe? It's a real catch-22 to me. On the one hand, it makes believers much more moderate and thoughtful, and that's a good thing. OTOH, it is an unintentional acknowledgement that parts of the belief system are flawed or wrong. From a non-believer perspective if it's so easy to just dismiss what you don't like, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the solidity or everlastingness of what are supposed to be eternal, unchanging truths. If that makes any sense at all....
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Kar2oonman, I'm honestly not trying to condemn or mock you. I seriously don't understand how someone could justify this to themselves. When you read the bible, and you choose the parts you want to believe and pick parts you don't think are true, and then ad lib the rest, you have to realize that from a common sense stand point you're most likely going to be wrong in your beliefs. Everyone is going to interpret it differently and not everyone can be right, right? How does it make sense to have so many interpretations of the bible though if you're religious? It's one thing to believe in the bible and what it teaches, but to say, I believe this part but not this part, and start making up reasons for why, it's just you making things up. And then believing wholeheartedly in it. I guess I'm wondering how you can have so much faith and belief in something you just happen to feel a certain way about? Don't you require more certainty to devote yourself to something? I require blatant proof to believe in something, and even then I remain skeptical. And as far as religious and non living together and getting along, I happen to believe that if every religious person was like YOU specifically, I'd have no problems living peacefully right alongside them. Unfortunately, I don't find this to be the case. So please don't take this personally, I really am interested in the answers you have because it confuses me. As for YOU personally, I have nothing against you, as a matter of face, you'll often find yourself on my Top Five Favorite LPers list
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "It's a real catch-22 to me. On the one hand, it makes believers much more moderate and thoughtful, and that's a good thing. OTOH, it is an unintentional acknowledgement that parts of the belief system are flawed or wrong. From a non-believer perspective if it's so easy to just dismiss what you don't like, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the solidity or everlastingness of what are supposed to be eternal, unchanging truths." Yeah, this is exactly what I was TRYING to say. As always, ECDC put it far better than I could. I suppose something good can come from being the cousin of ACDC!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But I don't understand why religious people have to be all-or-nothing when it comes to what they believe*** This sounds like the words of someone who considers the Bible fallible and flawed. After all, how can you pick and choose from "Gods Book" the stuff you believe and the stuff you think is bunk. Isn't that blasphemy of the highest order?
