Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<And then believing wholeheartedly in it.>> I think that's a key phrase here - I'm not sure sure every person who classifies themselves as Christian would really claim to believe everything "wholeheartedly". I think a lot of religious people understand that there isn't really any proof for what they believe, and are ok with that. They're not as "committed to the cause" as some of the more radical religious types out there. I wish more Christians, and members of other faiths, were like that. We'd live in a much more tolerant world if that were so!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<After all, how can you pick and choose from "Gods Book" the stuff you believe and the stuff you think is bunk.>> It is possible to believe some of the truths captured in the Bible, and yet not think that the entire book is TRUTH, isn't it? I know Fundamentalist Christians claim to believe every word, but I know that the Catholic Church takes a more "intelligent" approach to interpreting the Bible. (At least, they do these days - not so much in the past...)
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It is possible to believe some of the truths captured in the Bible, and yet not think that the entire book is TRUTH, isn't it?<< Oh sure. And again, this is a tricky issue for me because the people that do think more critically about the Bible are the believers I respect. These are the kinds of believers we want in all religious faiths. They don't fly planes into buildings. But I'm just trying to explain why the whole pick and choose thing strikes non-believers as a bit odd. Most believers will tell you their faith is the most important thing in their life, or at least one of the most important. So it just seems strange that something so important and something so eternal can be so elastic and malleable. Maybe it's because there's no objective, quantitative, or systematic way of picking and choosing. It truly is, "I like this idea, I don't like that idea." Fair enough, but from an outsider perspective, that randomness, which varies from person to person, only seems to reinforce that religious belief is a human invention and not some kind of anchored truth.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "It is possible to believe some of the truths captured in the Bible, and yet not think that the entire book is TRUTH, isn't it?" How can you tell yourself what you're picking and choosing is correct? Don't you constantly doubt your beliefs? "Why should I believe this is correct when I just made it up based on how I feel?" If so many parts of the bible are incorrect or outdated, isn't it possible the whole thing is?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 << Don't you constantly doubt your beliefs?>> Of course - but then again, I'm not a very good Catholic. I pretty much choose to believe what rings true for me - and even then, I'm open to being proven wrong. I don't really understand people that say things like "this is definitely God's truth", or something like that. How could you ever possibly know for sure?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<If so many parts of the bible are incorrect or outdated, isn't it possible the whole thing is?>> While I think most of the clearly "mythical" stuff in the Bible is not true, there are a lot of good life lessons in there too. Jesus had a lot of good things to say about how we should treat one another, and I see no harm in taking those things as TRUTH.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Jesus did have a lot of good things to say. But it's possible Jesus was just a really progressive guy and others idealized him because of his beliefs?
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance You can like some of the things someone had to say, while not liking some of the others, without having to believe he's in heaven smiling down at everyone. I understand the alternative notion that their is no after life or heaven isn't very comforting, but still.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "Reread this and ask yourself why I might be confused by such behavior. If you believe that demons exist, which as a Christian I assume you do, and you follow the logic that they should be shunned and rebuked, why in the world would you have you child dress up as one? Do you not believe in Satan Princessjenn5795? Just curious." Do I believe in Satan? Yes I do. And I believe in absolute evil and I believe we should turn from that to what is right. It has nothing to do with letting my step daughter walk around in sparkly red devil horns and a sparkly tail. And it not a "line-item veto" like Barboy said. It is knowing the difference between evil and a child's costume and that is what my point was when you were talking about books ad Disneyland too. I am a Christian but, because of the pastors in my church growing up, I do not believe that we should live our lives in fear of being sent to Hell for every little thing we do. I do believe that the Bible, while an excellent guide, is not literal and that it is contradictory and the overall message we get out of it is more important than trying to fit every passage into an idea of what is right.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <But it's possible Jesus was just a really progressive guy and others idealized him because of his beliefs?> Not if you believe the Biblical account of things he said.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < I mean, Christians are Christians because they believe in Jesus and not Allah. > Just a point of fact, here: "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God." Allah IS the Judeo-Christian God. Muslims also go back to Abraham, and mention Jesus in the Koran and consider Him a great prophet (but not divine). Someone (can't remember who) once described it this way: Muslims sort of consider Judaism to be "God 1.0." Then Christianity was "God 2.0" - in other words, closer to perfection but not there yet. Then came Mohammad, the great messenger and greatest prophet, who brought Islam, which is "God 3.0." So, like all religions, they consider theirs to be the "real deal," but do consider Jews and Christians to be fellow "people of the book," as opposed to Hinduism, say, which they tend to see as "God 0.0" If there are any Muslims on this thread, perhaps you can tell me if I'm completely off the wall on that one! <And so, if they believe it to be correct, then how does one choose to just dismiss one part of it?> Well for one thing, many Christians (myself included) do not believe the Bible as literal truth; we believe that much is metaphor and parable. In the NT, Jesus specifically says "I'm going to tell you a parable now..." and then does it. A story with a point. He doesn't say there was LITERALLY a man on the road and this good Samaritan who came upon him; he says it's a parable and this is what you ought to do in a similar situation. Many of us believe that the OT is also full of parable and metaphor, but not introduced as such. The obvious one is the creation story. No, I don't believe it was 6 actual days. Some do, though fossil records kind of put the kibosh on that one. But what of "days" that are millions of years long each? <How, for example, how is the Bible right about Jesus dying on the cross but wrong about homosexuality and women?> Well, on homosexuality, the Bible doesn't actually say what many people (Judeo-Christian and not!) think it does. Trust me, I've looked into this one. The most famous passage in Leviticus describes "men laying with men" as (in the original Hebrew) "toevah," usually translated as "abomination." But "toevah" does not mean something inherently wrong, it means "ritually unclean," for Jews only, akin to eating shellfish. (Look a little later in Leviticus and you will see the same "abomination" used to describe eating shellfish.) If it meant something inherently wrong, the word "zimah" would have been used. It was not. I could go on, but if you're interested, check out <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance....bibl.htm</a> which goes into all the passages. And don't get me started on translations - many of which simply indicate the biases of the translators. Anyway, many of us believe that you CAN look at the Bible in a deeper way and see that it is essentially a series of stories put together by imperfect people over many centuries in an attempt to understand God as well as possible. Many of the authors had their own reasons for including what they did in the way they did (just the four Gospels themselves were written at different times, and emphasize different things for different reasons). For me personally, being a Christian means looking at what Christ himself taught, and giving that a lot more weight than a historical story about this particular clash between the Jews and the Canaanites, say. The Bible was written by so many different people over so long a period for so many different reasons, that for me (unlike those who insist that every word is literal and inspired) it's about listening to Jesus' teachings and how they distill things. Sort of the ultimate distillation: ""Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." So if it all can be distilled to that, if I see something in the Bible that contradicts that (and I believe some of it does), I'll go with what the guy I'm supposed to be following says about it. I don't know if I've explained that very well, but there it is.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Don't you constantly doubt your beliefs?<< Yes, I do. I think about it a lot, and on any given day I'll second- or third-guess myself and faith in general. But I'm just trying to figure it out the best I can with my tiny human brain. I don't think my life will be evaluated on whether or not I marched lock-step with a particular religion. >>Fair enough, but from an outsider perspective, that randomness, which varies from person to person, only seems to reinforce that religious belief is a human invention and not some kind of anchored truth.<< It could be, I don't know. I remember starting a thread here years ago about this, because many people have said that they have "heard a calling" or seen visions or had some way of KNOWING, without a doubt, that there is a God. I have had no such vision. And yet... something in me gives me faith that God exists. In a way, I envy literalists. People who say they won't believe a thing without full proof, or people who believe it all without any proof beyond a holy book. I wish I was that sure, unshakable. It would definitely be easier.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I wish I was that sure, unshakable. It would definitely be easier.> Amen!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Jesus did have a lot of good things to say. But it's possible Jesus was just a really progressive guy and others idealized him because of his beliefs?*** So-called "Christian conservatives" will have a lot to answer for if Jesus really is God. I'll say this much with conviction, I think Jesus was one of the greatest human beings in all of history. And if he is God, I hope I'll at least get an audience with him before getting kicked downstairs. I'll drop to my knees and thank him, profusely, for his incredibly humane message of love and peace and goodwill. Then I'll cook, probably. Even so, he rocked (whether as a person, as a prophet, or as a god), and I have no problem with his message. MY problem is with the religious zealots that do lots of evil crap in his name. "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"...words to live by. I try to live by that every day. I'm not perfect, neither are you, thus I have NO right to judge. So many so-called Christians make a living out of judging. I have to wonder what Jesus would make of all the homosexual hatred or the wars or the attacks on other faiths and all the rest. And the whole attack on poverty...jeez what would he think of THAT!? I can only guess he would be mortified (I sure am). I should stop now...I'm getting too worked up. lol.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Not if you believe the Biblical account of things he said*** Based on YOUR hateful actions, Josh, I'd say you have very little to say about the biblical accounts of what HE said. But you'll account for all of it, if he really *is* god. You definitely missed that part about "love thy neighbor", to say the least. You prefer "hate thy neighbor, if I don't approve of you!".
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Just a point of fact, here: "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God." Allah IS the Judeo-Christian God. Muslims also go back to Abraham, and mention Jesus in the Koran and consider Him a great prophet (but not divine).<< I promise I do know that I was just illustrating a point that people pick what they believe because they think it's true. I originally went with Buddha instead of Allah, but that didn't seem quite right because Buddhists don't worship Buddha in the same vein that Christians worship their god. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "If so many parts of the bible are incorrect or outdated, isn't it possible the whole thing is?" Which basically says to me why bother with it at all. If its permissible within your religion to willfully pick and choose which elements of Christian teachings to believe or disbelieve then why not abandon it altogether and establish your own moral compass?
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Wow, so many people commenting on my comments! I feel like a part of the conversation! Yay! The biggest eye opener to me when I first starting questioning my religion affiliation was finding out the similarities between Mithraism and Christianity. For a sum up, take a look at this article I found online. Keep in mind this Mithraism religion was popular THOUSANDS of years before Jesus was born. " Mithraism was the main religion before Christianity came from about 800BCE to 300CE and Mithras was worshipped just about everywhere, from Syria to the UK. Mithras was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. Mithraism was the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. Mithras was believed to have been born of a virgin. Like JC, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days later, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of JC' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. Many of the stories found in the bible can be found in the ancient religious tablets of civilisations the predated Christianity by thousands of years. Read more: <a href="http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-philosophy/78415-mithraism-christianity.html#ixzz0zWoSIpF0" target="_blank">http://www.city-data.com/forum...zWoSIpF0</a>"
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance And this: "However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single forerunner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world." Now why would I believe that Christianity is any different or truer than any of these religions that came before it?
