Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>If its permissible within your religion to willfully pick and choose which elements of Christian teachings to believe or disbelieve then why not abandon it altogether and establish your own moral compass?<< So you're of the opinion that one must be a total fundamentalist or have no religious faith at all.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt No, what I'm saying is that Christianity is useless as a tool for sustaining or measuring one's morality is useless. I can be a "good" person without following Christ's teachings.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Ugh! I'm trying to have this conversation while working. Sorry. What I meant to say is this: Christianity is useless as a tool for sustaining or measuring one's morality. I can be a "good" person without following Christ's teachings.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I can be a "good" person without following Christ's teachings. >> Technically, if you are being a good person by doing the same things that Christ taught, aren't you essentially "following his teachings" even if you don't acknowledge it? I'm just saying...
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Maybe by coincidence, but certainly not by design. But then again, I'm certainly not going to accept his claim that he was the Messiah or any such nonsense, so I suppose the answer to your question is no.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 I meant his moral teachings, but I see your point. It could be hard to teach one without the other when reading the Bible.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Based on YOUR hateful actions, Josh, I'd say you have very little to say about the biblical accounts of what HE said. But you'll account for all of it, if he really *is* god. You definitely missed that part about "love thy neighbor", to say the least. You prefer "hate thy neighbor, if I don't approve of you!".> Supporting Prop 8 had nothing to do with hate. You say it is, I say it's not. And I know my heart a LOT more than you do. Is there anything else you are talking about?
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Oh Josh, you supported prop 8??? Why would you possibly care, Josh? It's none of your business.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Christianity is useless as a tool for sustaining or measuring one's morality.<< It might be useless for you, but it isn't useless for everyone. If one believes in Christian principles -- even folks who pick and choose which particular aspects of it -- it is useful to them. I think I know you well enough to know that you understand shades of gray and that people aren't simply one thing or the other.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm glad I'm in a religion that claims to have living prophets, whose teachings are just as valid as the teachings of the prophets found in the Bible. We don't have the issue of "Well, the Bible could have been interpreted like THIS," because we have more scripture to compare it to, and more understanding from the living prophets.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "living prophets" So you'd believe anything a "living prophet" tells you to? Boy, it's a good thing they are religious and close to God, otherwise all that power could really go to a person's head and they might take advantage of their followers for selfish purposes!
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So you'd believe anything a "living prophet" tells you to? Boy, it's a good thing they are religious and close to God, otherwise all that power could really go to a person's head and they might take advantage of their followers for selfish purposes!> Too true. Good thing that the last two prophets, Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson, were good, honest, unselfish, kind men who were called of God.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Okay, this is where I ask for my check and hat and depart. I'm not interested in a this-religion-is-better-than-that-one conversation.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'll speak well of my religion and defend it until the day I die. That said, I'm also not interested in mean-spirited discussion of any kind, especially when religion is involved.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Good thing that the last two prophets, Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson, were good, honest, unselfish, kind men who were called of God.>> And what happens when they're not those things? What would you do? Would you follow them anyway? I found myself in a similar situation recently with the election of our current pope. While I'm not a very religious Catholic, I still had a lot of respect for Pope John Paul II. While I didn't always agree with all his positions on issues, I still respected the man. Not so much for Pope Benedict - I have very little respect for him, or any of his other Vatican officials. I find myself agreeing with very little that comes out of his mouth. Thank God I actually have a brain and just don't blindly follow whatever the church tells me is "right and wrong".
Originally Posted By utahjosh <And what happens when they're not those things? What would you do? Would you follow them anyway?> If they stop being good men who serve God with all their hearts, I'll stop following them. If I disagree with something they say, I'll make it a matter of prayer and decide for myself.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>We don't have the issue of "Well, the Bible could have been interpreted like THIS," because we have more scripture to compare it to, and more understanding from the living prophets.<< Of course you have that issue. You just have it on a more micro-level of Mormon prophets disagreeing. Josh, you compliment yourself on somehow being different, but it's exactly the same as other faiths, just in slightly skewed ways. You still have problems with what constitutes revelation and scripture, you have dueling interpretations, etc. You've convinced yourself that Mormonism solves all these problems that other faiths deal with. In reality, it's just reinvented them. >>Too true. Good thing that the last two prophets, Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson, were good, honest, unselfish, kind men who were called of God.<< You have no proof they were called of anything, which is why you have no business forcing their vision on anyone else.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>That said, I'm also not interested in mean-spirited discussion of any kind, especially when religion is involved.<< So criticism of religion is mean-spirited. But Prop 8 was all about love. Got it.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So criticism of religion is mean-spirited> Not always, no. Never said that. Putting words in my mouth IS mean spirited. Prop 8 has been discussed at length here and I will not bring it up again. I will repeat that my support of it had not one ounce of hate involved.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I will repeat that my support of it had not one ounce of hate involved.<< I have no doubt you believe that. Just like people in the 50s believed segregation had nothing to do with hate.
