Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "It might be useless for you, but it isn't useless for everyone. If one believes in Christian principles -- even folks who pick and choose which particular aspects of it -- it is useful to them." It is useless if there is no Heaven or God or divine purpose for mankind. Furthermore, I would argue that the average Christian isn't any more "good" than the average non-believer. If it makes you feel good to believe in God and think that by following Christ's teachings will get you into Heaven, then fine, but Christians and other religious folks don't have a lock on moral correctness.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Christians and other religious folks don't have a lock on moral correctness<< I never said they did. >>It is useless if there is no Heaven or God or divine purpose for mankind.<< Is it useless to just be a decent person if there is no Heaven or God or divine purpose? Of course it isn't. It's one thing to say having religious faith isn't a requirement to being a good, caring person. It's quite another to declare all aspects of religion as having no worth at all.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < I will repeat that my support of it had not one ounce of hate involved. > You and your church actively fought to deny equal rights to your fellow citizens in this non-theocracy we live in. Like the segregationists, you may not think hate is involved because you don't feel active hate; and yet the result is a hateful one.
Originally Posted By ecdc I would never argue it's useless for those who believe it. Obviously it has a huge impact in their lives. And I see nothing wrong with that - as long as it impacts their life and not mine. But it seems self-evident to me that this approach of picking and choosing reveals the flaw in the plan, so to speak. Christianity, in its various forms, essentially stipulates certain beliefs and certain behaviors in order to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So if I have a blueprint for a 60-story building, but I just kinda disregard this i-beam, that support structure, etc., and the building still works out just fine, then...what's the point of the plan at all?
Originally Posted By ecdc If someone says, "Hey, my life experience tells me that there's something else out there, so I'm actively choosing to participate in X faith because it allows me to tap into whatever that 'other' is," that makes sense to me. You're acknowledging that you really have no knowledge about what else might be out there, but you believe there's more and you're choosing a way that makes sense to you to try and experience it. But anything beyond that seems to be the problem I've tried to explain in this thread. If you say, "Well I'm a Christian, I'm certain Jesus died for my sins, but I'm not really on board with what Jesus said about adultery or divorce..." well that seems a bit more problematic to me. How can you be so sure of one but then reject the other?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Christianity, in its various forms, essentially stipulates certain beliefs and certain behaviors in order to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.> Even that varies, actually. There's the classic Catholic/Protestant split for starters; the need for good works vs. salvation through faith alone, respectively. Plus the whole thing of forgiveness for sins. Many Christians believe that an entirely awful person who did scores of terrible things through the years can ask forgiveness at the end and get into Heaven, while a Hindu or Jew who lived an exemplary life will burn for eternity. I'm honest enough to say that never made sense to me. And the thing with the Bible is, if you want to, you can find passages that say "Well, ya' gotta be a Christian or you're screwed," and other passages that say "there are many paths." Me, I believe there's something out there. And the teachings of Jesus make sense to me. And (frankly), I was raised in that tradition and I'm fully aware that that plays into it. So the thing for me is to try to be as good a person as I can, and not get hung up on the more doctrinaire elements of a text with such a complicated history. If that seems "not good enough" to some, I don't care.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So if I have a blueprint for a 60-story building, but I just kinda disregard this i-beam, that support structure, etc., and the building still works out just fine, then...what's the point of the plan at all?<< What I'm saying is that there are any number of ways to construct that 60-story building. They don't all look alike. Some are more ornate than others, some sturdier, some not so. But in the end, they all reach the same height. As I understand it, Christianity allows for the fact that people are not perfect, that they'll try to take short cuts, that they will fall short of perfection. That they'll deviate from the blueprint, to use your example. I think there are things people can do that will make the whole 'building' collapse. But there's a lot of things that aren't as likely to affect the overall structure -- choosing this shade of paint over that. I know there is a school of thought that says if you don't take every single word in the Bible literally, and do things in your life in THIS. EXACT. WAY. Then you are doomed. I don't believe that. I figure if there is a God, He gave me a brain to think these things through and interpret them as best I can.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So the thing for me is to try to be as good a person as I can, and not get hung up on the more doctrinaire elements of a text with such a complicated history. If that seems "not good enough" to some, I don't care.<< That's what I've been trying to get at. You said it perfectly.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Is it useless to just be a decent person if there is no Heaven or God or divine purpose? Of course it isn't. It's one thing to say having religious faith isn't a requirement to being a good, caring person. It's quite another to declare all aspects of religion as having no worth at all." Well you tell me, what purpose do they serve? What can belief do for me that I can't do for myself?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <That's what I've been trying to get at. You said it perfectly.> Thanks. And ecdc, I certainly didn't mean you as someone to whom it wouldn't be "good enough" - I meant the more fundy practitioners who insist on "literalism of every word," but who invariably "pick and choose"themselves as much as anyone.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "I would never argue it's useless for those who believe it." Well that's a bit like saying that I believe that Martians have visited the Earth, blessed me, and because of that someday I'll join them on Mars and we'll live happily ever after. Like I said, if that works for you, great, but in the end my faith is pointless because such things do not exist.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>What can belief do for me that I can't do for myself?<< I'm not trying to dodge the question, but I can't answer that for you. For you personally, perhaps the answer is nothing. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm not a recruiter. But for millions of people, they use their faith as a buoy in times of turmoil. Sometimes it can help deal with what seems to be plain unfairness in life, other times it can inspire people to persevere and push themselves to take on doing good works, helping their fellow man. Of course, any of those things can be done without religious faith as well, but for people with religious faith, that's how it plays out in their lives.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt >>So the thing for me is to try to be as good a person as I can, and not get hung up on the more doctrinaire elements of a text with such a complicated history. If that seems "not good enough" to some, I don't care.<< "That's what I've been trying to get at. You said it perfectly." And what I'm saying if you aren't embracing the whole doctrine of Christianity then why not establish your own moral compass? You don't need Jesus, God, Zeus, Brahman, or the Man in The Moon to be a good person.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>but in the end my faith is pointless<< Well, if you don't do anything with it, sure. But I'm saying that if that belief inspired you to help people, affected you to be a better person, even if there is no Mars-Heaven, it wasn't pointless.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>You don't need Jesus, God, Zeus, Brahman, or the Man in The Moon to be a good person.<< I've agreed with you about a hundred and eleven times on that. Which part of "I agree" do you object to? lol
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <And what I'm saying if you aren't embracing the whole doctrine of Christianity then why not establish your own moral compass? You don't need Jesus, God, Zeus, Brahman, or the Man in The Moon to be a good person.> No one said you did. I know athiests and agnostics who are great people. What Jesus taught makes sense to me.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>>>Christians and other religious folks don't have a lock on moral correctness<< I never said they did.<< Agreed. I think that what is really at the core of Christianity, wherether it be Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic or "other" is the vicarious atonement of the Cross. Christ's followers will try to imitate him (and fail), but that's not what it's really about. It's about forgivenees. And as the Lord's prayer reminds Christians, the forgiveness we show to others will be the yardstick that will be used when we ourselves ask for forgiveness.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan You also don't need a mate to get through life. You don't need a family, and you don't have to have friends. You can be a loner if you like and get by just fine. But most people choose to have other people in their lives -- friends, family, partners. And some of those people draw comfort from having faith that there is a God as well.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Of course, any of those things can be done without religious faith as well, but for people with religious faith, that's how it plays out in their lives." I suppose that's where the hypocrisy of religious folks like Sarah Palin and her ilk come in to play. After all she and Beck have been inspired to persevere and push themselves to take on doing good works, and help their fellow man, right? On another note, Kar2oonMan, I should say that I don't mean to judge or put you on the spot about your beliefs. I do have respect for you and your faith and, generally speaking, you and I mostly agree on the WE boards. Frankly, if more people were as objective about Christianity as you are we'd be able to accomplish a heck of a lot more as a nation.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "Well you tell me, what purpose do they serve? What can belief do for me that I can't do for myself?" That is for you to figure out if you choose to do so. Everyone has to find out what they believe or don't believe for themselves. If you do not believe than it does nothing for you. And, even though I do believe, as long as you are a decent person that does no harm to anyone else it really makes no difference to me whether you believe or not. Re #266 and #267: You guys expressed it much better than I did my two posts so thanks. "And what I'm saying if you aren't embracing the whole doctrine of Christianity then why not establish your own moral compass? You don't need Jesus, God, Zeus, Brahman, or the Man in The Moon to be a good person." Really, what's it to you? And how can you be a good judge of what a Christian is or is not supposed to believe if you are not a Christian? And what everyone has been trying to tell you is that there is no one "Christian Doctrine." Some believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and should be followed word for word. Others, like me see it as more of a guide because it was written and compiled by humans and is therefore not perfect. Instead we believe the overall message of Jesus is the more important than taking versus out of context to say whatever you want. It is the same in any religion really. Do you have to be a Christian to be a good person? Absolutely not. Many of us just choose to be Christian and good people at the same time. You choose not to believe and be a good person. Maybe one of us is right or maybe both of are wrong. It is the being the good person that is most important. As long as my being Christian does not hurt you or others what difference can it possibly make to you what I choose to believe?
