Originally Posted By utahjosh <There is very good precedent to believe the church will change its tune on gay marriage someday.> The issues are very, very different at the core.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Dabob2 and ecdc are right spot on with posts 78 and 79. Hat tip to you both. Josh will continue to view the history of his church and its leadership as it fits his current beliefs. Such is the nature of cognitive dissonance. Fact is, all religions around the globe save for Islam is in decline. The religion of Islam is the only one that continues to grow in membership and acceptance. If being a Mormon gives you peace and comfort and joy, more power to you. However... it should stick with you and not be crammed down everyone else's throats. Let the missionaries travel abroad and tell people about it, so they can judge for themselves. But if they choose not to believe it or embrace it as their own, then the LDS church needs to LET THEM BE. I'd have far more respect for your religion and others if these churches would stay the h*ll outta politics! "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you" and all that jazz. Conservative flavors of Christianity go completely blank on these two prominent teachings of Jesus, especially when it's politically expedient to do so. If the Mormon church refuses to change with the times, good riddance. And that goes for ANY organized religion on the planet.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The issues are very, very different at the core.<< Yes - TODAY. In 1860 if you gave Brigham Young the choice between allowing gay marriage or getting rid of polygamy, I guarantee you he would've chosen to keep polygamy and allow gay marriage.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 In #78, "without your church," should have been "within your church." We were talking About the space between us all...
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Getting back on topic, the whole idea of "the Rapture" is kind of bizarre.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>the whole idea of "the Rapture" is kind of bizarre<< I know. A man from Mars shooting you dead, eating your head, then you're in the man from Mars and go out at night, eating cars. What's that about?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***< Go check out the Kirk Cameron thread - rather than agree that Cameron is off his rocker for altering Darwin's book and distributing it, people would rather step in and defend him and say, "Gee, it's just what he believes; give him a break." And these same people would never, ever extend that same courtesy to atheists or Muslim fundamentalists.> Kirk is handing out a book. Muslim fundamentalists are killing thousands of innocent people.*** Josh, you are being prejudiced here and refusing to compare apples with apples to say the least. Why not say Muslim terrorists? Because this way you can make all of the Muslims look bad? Muslim "fundamentalists" of which there are surely millions just like Christian are no better or worse in the grand scheme of things and no more likely to be murderers either (isolated cases, like in Christianity, might occur of course). So Kirk Cameron has less than nothing to compare with those Muslims who killed thousands, don't be ridiculous. Compare those Muslim terrorists to Christian terrorists, and then perhaps we could have a real discussion about who is worse. Here's some info on REAL Christian terrorism, obviously it has (or had) a stronghold in Ireland just as Muslim terrorists do in Afghanistan and Pakistan... <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...errorism</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X ***here is very good precedent to believe the church will change its tune on gay marriage someday.> The issues are very, very different at the core.*** On the contrary, they are eerily similar. They are both about equal rights for all, and sadly the same pushback the blacks got (and the women, and other minorities, and jews, and non-Christians, back and back and back) taught us nothing as we as a civilization do the same horrible things to the gays until, one day, people will look back and say "gee why did those people treat the gays/blacks/muslims/jews/etc. so horribly? I'm sure glad *we're* more enlightened than those savage people were! Of course at that point it'll probably be some other disenfranchised group that's getting kicked. Right now there is a clear class distinction between gays and transgender folks as it pertains to equal rights so that'll probably be the NEXT hurdle...
Originally Posted By Mr X ***here is very good precedent to believe the church will change its tune on gay marriage someday.> The issues are very, very different at the core.*** On the contrary, they are eerily similar. They are both about equal rights for all, and sadly the same pushback the blacks got (and the women, and other minorities, and jews, and non-Christians, back and back and back) taught us nothing as we as a civilization do the same horrible things to the gays until, one day, people will look back and say "gee why did those people treat the gays/blacks/muslims/jews/etc. so horribly? I'm sure glad *we're* more enlightened than those savage people were! Of course at that point it'll probably be some other disenfranchised group that's getting kicked. Right now there is a clear class distinction between gays and transgender folks as it pertains to equal rights so that'll probably be the NEXT hurdle...
Originally Posted By magnet *>>To quote ChurroMonster from another thread; "Beliefs can not ever be facts. Beliefs and facts should not be part of the same debate." Nuff said. G'night.<<* It's interesting that your quote states a "fact" and then immediately follows it with a "belief". I think we're done here. G'night to you too. ***We now return you to another dreadful social commentary already in progress***
Originally Posted By Mr X Oh, and in related science news, a potential vaccine for AIDS!! <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/24/hiv.vaccine/index.html" target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HE...dex.html</a> If faith and prayer led to it, all the better! I really don't care, so long as they keep making progress like this!
Originally Posted By teddibubbles One thing I find very hard on criticism of bible believer's. if you believe there is a LAW MAKER. and HE has the Bottom Line. ( OBEY) and HE sets the laws. even if we DON"T understand it all. even if we have hardship with some of the LAWS. if we KNOW he is the TOP LAW MAKER. than side with him. we are called extremist. if the LAW maker KILLED a person that drank a diet drink. and said ITS LAW>i Don't drink Diet drink.< so I tell people ultimately. you will be killed if you drink diet drink. THE LAW MAKER SAID SO. why? if I KNEW in my heart this is be the TRUTH as strong as we CAN believe in something. WHY? would you point at ME? as the extremist. when all I am trying to do is WARN YOU that the law maker said this is the law! I CAN"T understand why. ------------------------------------------------------------------- now hypothetical lets say this WAS TRUE. and you just bought a diet soda. in the waiting room before entering the court room. a BAD ME< could sit and say nothing.. after all I am just minding my own business and just doing my best to set a Diet soda free example. OR the WISE ME< WOULD CARE FOR YOU! and WARN. of What WE KNOW to be true of the LAW MAKERS ..LAWS. there for not >> MY<< judgment on you drinking that diet soda. but me being the extremist.. I want to point out > the LAW< that was Past out. by the LAW MAKER. so you don't get hurt.
Originally Posted By teddibubbles I have never seen the air I breath. but I know it to exist. I personally have never seen a molecule. I have only TOOK THE WORD OF A BOOK. that they exist. ( you haven't ether. yet you believe) I can tell you all about my brother in law . that was a great guitarist. you can doubt me or believe me. after all. you have never seen me.. I am nothing to you.. I am a written word. coming from where? where is the Internet? shot out to a satellite in outer space? sounds strange to me. a faceless written word. broadcast to you over some creation .. yet even never seeing me. even not knowing me. you believe you are reading my words. so a creator of the vast universe. could not possibly exist in you're mind. nore have the power to have shared his word with different people.. I wonder how many people have read what I just typed. these strange words coming out of a screen. a person exciting out there somewhere. how can you prove I am real? you only believe in me. because .. you took the time to read about me. or searched me out. and can relate because you are using the same device I am. there are many things in this life like molecules. you PERSONALLY have not seen. yet they DO exist. it would be fun to point out the many things we have NEVER Witnessed our self.. yet we would die defending its existence
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I personally have never seen a molecule. I have only TOOK THE WORD OF A BOOK. that they exist. > Or a molecular microscope. Where you can actually see them. No need to take the word of a book. I believe in God myself, teddi. But what you wrote above could be said by followers of, say, Scientology also. It's all in the book, and I'm only doing you a favor if I insist you adhere by the precepts of what *I* believe.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Or Unicorns? I've seen an image of one on a really old tapestry, and they're in a lot of books, so it must have been a real creature, right?
